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View Full Version : Insights on LCDs v. Plasmas



SoTexBear
01-11-07, 05:43 PM
Costco is about to have a 47" LCD 1080p HDTV for $1,649.99. (http://www.vizio.com/products/detail.aspx?pid=20)

It's tempting.

Thoughts? Insights?

wantsBU2win
01-11-07, 05:55 PM
I have a smaller LCD (27") and I love it!

turk4037
01-11-07, 06:36 PM
Read the reviews on it. I like the idea of buying from Costco, they will take anything back even after the warranty is gone. Just keep your receipt.

SoTexBear
01-11-07, 06:48 PM
I had a Vizio camera that I hated, but I've heard surprisingly good things about the Vizio LCDs and plasmas. They're not rated with the Sony's, Panasonics, or others, but they're great for being $1,000 cheaper than those.

GoBearsGo
01-12-07, 09:50 AM
Costco is awesome. I would trade my left pinkie if they opened one in Beaumont.

AstroBear
01-12-07, 10:26 AM
If watching sports is important to you, and I assume that it is, make sure your LCD comes with DLP Technology. Otherwise, there can be a blur during fast-moving plays.

I know Samsung has DLP and many other brands are getting it.

SoTexBear
01-12-07, 10:44 AM
DLP is completely different from LCD - I think. I didn't think it was possible to have the two in the same set. There's LCD projection, LCD flat panel, CRT projection, DLP projection, and Plasma.

The older LCDs had blur issues, but those issues are all but gone with the new 1080p LCDs.

ecow
01-12-07, 11:20 AM
How DLP TVs work! (http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/dlp.htm)

ecow
01-12-07, 11:22 AM
How Plasma Displays Work (http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/plasma-display.htm)

Those are some good starting references. I haven't heard anything bad about Vizio, but it's main competition would probably be the Westinghouse 1080p LCDs which are popular on www.avsforum.com

I would suggest looking up the Vizio on that forum.

ecow
01-12-07, 11:23 AM
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=777914&highlight=gv47lf

jstins
01-12-07, 12:21 PM
My Dad's Rear Projection LCD is wonderful. My in-laws LCD flat panel sucks donkey butt. Flat panel LCDs lose clarity the bigger they get. I have been looking into DLP as well. I saw a website that said < 22 in = LCD >22 inch = DLP. I am probably giong with the rear projection LCD myself, because I love the quality that my dad's has.

AstroBear
01-12-07, 12:28 PM
DLP is a technology that a variety of TVs come with.

I have an Samsung LCD Flat Panel with DLP technology. It's made by Texas Instruments. Check out their website for info on how it works.



DLP is completely different from LCD - I think. I didn't think it was possible to have the two in the same set. There's LCD projection, LCD flat panel, CRT projection, DLP projection, and Plasma.

The older LCDs had blur issues, but those issues are all but gone with the new 1080p LCDs.

SoTexBear
01-12-07, 12:28 PM
Check out the new LCD 1080p TVs first. They're amazing and nothing like the LCDs of just a year ago.

SoTexBear
01-12-07, 12:31 PM
DLP is a technology that a variety of TVs come with.

I have an Samsung LCD Flat Panel with DLP technology. It's made by Texas Instruments. Check out their website for info on how it works.

So do I click on the DLP link or the LCD link. There isn't a DLP/LCD link. (http://www.samsung.com/products/tv/index.asp)

Nothing here either... (http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/lcdtv/index.asp)

SoTexBear
01-12-07, 12:34 PM
Maybe you read LED backlit DLPs and thought you read LCD? I'm being serious.

Samsung's latest TVs as of 1/7/07 (http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/07/samsung-introduces-2007-lcd-plasma-dlp-and-crt-lineup/)

turk4037
01-12-07, 12:39 PM
DLP is not related to LCD in any way, shape or form. DLP uses tiny little micromirrors to display the image. LCD works in an entirely different way.

IMO, LCD is the best way to go right now.


DLP is a technology that a variety of TVs come with.

I have an Samsung LCD Flat Panel with DLP technology. It's made by Texas Instruments. Check out their website for info on how it works.

Oso Smart
01-12-07, 01:43 PM
Turk is right; DLP and LCD are totally unrelated. DLPs are rear-projection (even the slimmer ones), LCDs are flat panel displays. Only reason to go DLP is that they're cheaper, but in the case of this Vizio, price isn't a problem.

What this boils down to is how much do you really care about 1080p. It's the top-of-the-line native resolution, but most experts will tell you that it doesn't make that much of a difference on this size display (it makes a huge difference on 55 in. and up displays, but little difference on 50 in. and down). Constrast ratio, color range, color accuracy, and several other factors are more important to the picture than the difference between 1080p and 1080i (or 720p), again, on this size display.

Plasma gives you a sharper picture than LCD, even with a 1080p LCD. That being said, I don't think you're going wrong with this LCD. It's cheap, Vizio is quickly garnering a decent reputation, and others have testified to the service at Costco. It's not gonna look like a $5k Sony Bravia, but at that price, it'll do. If you're concerned with the best picture, check out some of the deals for plasmas on Fry's outpost.com (they have a top-of-the-line 50 in. Panasonic plasma for $1800). If not, go with the Vizio and be happy.

ecow
01-12-07, 02:29 PM
Turk is right; DLP and LCD are totally unrelated. DLPs are rear-projection (even the slimmer ones), LCDs are flat panel displays.

That's not entirely true. There are LCD projection TVs and from the outside they will appear to look exactly like a DLP TV. DLP technology is only found in projection TVs, but LCDs can be used in both projection and flat panel (thin) designs. Sony has a very popular line of LCD projection TVs.

ecow
01-12-07, 02:31 PM
So do I click on the DLP link or the LCD link. There isn't a DLP/LCD link. (http://www.samsung.com/products/tv/index.asp)

Nothing here either... (http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/lcdtv/index.asp)

Read either one, they describe the differences between the different types as well. The long avsforum.com link goes to a forum thread with a wealth of knowledge on that particular television.

HotSauce
01-12-07, 02:31 PM
Fry's owns all.

ecow
01-12-07, 02:33 PM
Plasma gives you a sharper picture than LCD, even with a 1080p LCD. That being said, I don't think you're going wrong with this LCD. It's cheap, Vizio is quickly garnering a decent reputation, and others have testified to the service at Costco. It's not gonna look like a $5k Sony Bravia, but at that price, it'll do. If you're concerned with the best picture, check out some of the deals for plasmas on Fry's outpost.com (they have a top-of-the-line 50 in. Panasonic plasma for $1800). If not, go with the Vizio and be happy.

Just a couple notes here. Fry's customer service and warranties are horrible when it comes to TVs.

Plasmas generally have brightness issues in rooms with lots of windows, so keep that in mind when evaluating one.

turk4037
01-12-07, 02:46 PM
Or wait for SED which will be the best of all, if it makes it to market! As fast as LCD and Plasma prices are dropping though I don't know if SED will come to market, which would be a shame.

turk4037
01-12-07, 02:48 PM
This just came out today, not looking good.


Patent Dispute Ends Canon, Toshiba SED Joint Venture


TOKYO, Jan. 12, 2007 -- Because of pending litigation against Canon Inc. over SED (surface-conduction electron-emitter display) technology, Japan-based Canon and Toshiba Corp. today announced the end of their joint ownership of SED Inc.

Canon is buying Toshiba's stake in the company, which is based in Japan and has 550 employees. SED Inc. will become a wholly owned subsidiary of Canon effective Jan. 29. Financial details of the transaction were not disclosed.

Kazunori Fukuma, the current president of SED Inc. appointed from Toshiba, will resign from Toshiba, after which he will be hired by Canon and continue to serve as SED Inc. president. Also, plans call for Toshiba engineers on loan to SED Inc. to continue their assignments for the transition period during which Canon will independently establish the SED panel business.

The companies said the decision to dissolve the joint venture was reached after discussing the prolonged litigation pending against Canon in the US with respect to SED technology, a next-generation flat-panel display technology jointly developed by Canon and Toshiba. The companies decided that Canon will carry out the SED panel business independently in order to launch commercial SEDs as soon as possible.

SED televisions generate light from electrons hitting a screen coated with phosphors, just like a conventional CRT (cathode-ray tube) television. But unlike a CRT, which has a large electron gun at the back of the tube, an SED uses thousands of microscopic electron emitters to generate the electrons, enabling the sets to be thinner and use less energy.

Austin, Texas-based Nano-Proprietary Inc. filed suit against Canon in April 2005, saying that the SED TVs Canon and Toshiba planned to produce are not covered under a 1999 patent license agreement it signed with Canon. Nano-Proprietary alleges that Canon improperly used the patented technology to produce SED screens and that the SED Inc. joint venture doesn't qualify as a licensed subsidiary under the 1999 agreement. The company said Canon improperly transferred its license rights to SED Inc. and that SED televisions fall squarely within the definition of excluded products under license.

A recent court ruling in Nano-Proprietary's favor resulted in Canon and Toshiba dropping plans to unveil a 55-in. SED television at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas this month.

"While the decision announced today represents a major change in the relationship between Canon and Toshiba, each company is expected to make every effort for the smooth launch of its television business based on the high image quality achieved by SED technology," the companies said in a statement.

SED television sets are to be introduced in Japan in the fourth quarter of this year as originally scheduled, although Canon will reassess its future mass-production plans for SED panels, the companies said.

Old_Timer
01-12-07, 02:50 PM
Vizio is bedroom TV quality. Go DLP or Plasma where serious TV is going to be watched. there really is an appreciable difference between Sony/Panasonic and Vizio on picture quality.

turk4037
01-12-07, 02:55 PM
Too bad. I wanted one of these babies!


Fade to Black for Next-Gen SED TVs?
Toshiba and Canon had big hopes for these futuristic wide-screen TVs, but high costs and legal headaches have held back the technology
by Kenji Hall

For any technology company, the annual Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas is the mother of all industry confabs. To build buzz, many of those companies will drop millions on lavish entertainment and flashy booths featuring some of the most advanced gadgetry on the planet. But with the event underway on Jan. 7, one futuristic TV technology will be notably absent: SED TVs.

Surface-conduction electron-emitter displays, or SEDs, have long been touted as the next big thing in flat, wide-screen TVs. The two Japanese companies promoting the technology—Toshiba (TOSBF) and Canon (CAJ)— say it offers a clearer picture and consumes less than half the power of both liquid-crystal or plasma displays TVs, which currently dominate the multibillion-dollar market for flat-screen sets.

But the duo's joint venture, called SED, Inc., has been held up by legal problems and high manufacturing costs. SED had originally hoped to begin production in late 2005, well ahead of the 2008 Beijing Olympics. The expectation was that this year and next the company could win a following among technophiles upgrading their sets and use the time to wow other consumers. That would have likely generated $250 million in revenues by the end of 2007.

Who Owns What
The problem was, the sets proved too expensive to make. So last March, the companies decided to push back an initial small production run of the TVs at Toshiba's Hiratsuka plant southwest of Tokyo. Plan B: Figure out how to cut manufacturing costs and then ramp up output for global shipments in 2007.

That was the idea, anyway, until they hit a legal roadblock. In mid-November, a U.S. District Court sided with Nano-Proprietary, a small Austin (Tex.)-based tech company, in a lawsuit against Canon. Nano-Proprietary licenses a key technology to Canon, but alleges that their agreement doesn't extend to the Japanese tech maker's SED venture with Toshiba. (Toshiba, for its part, argues that its slight majority in SED gives it the right to transfer Nano-Proprietary's technology to the venture, according to court filings.)

The case has left the SED venture's future in question—and hence, the absence of the sets at this year's electronics show in Las Vegas. A Canon spokesman acknowledged that the decision to yank SED TVs from CES was made at the last minute in December, following the court ruling.

That's a blow, because SED had just unveiled a new 55-in. TV prototype—a size that many industry insiders consider the next battleground for giant-screen sets—at another big industry trade show event in Tokyo back in October. In recent weeks, Canon and Toshiba have held emergency sessions to consider their options. "It's as a result of this lawsuit that we are reviewing our plans," said Canon's Richard Berger.

Expect Further Delays
Some analysts welcomed the news. In a Jan. 4 report, Merrill Lynch (MER) analyst Ryohei Takahashi noted that delay, or even a cancellation of the new plant, would be positive for Canon because it won't be burdened by near-term losses.

Berger and other officials said the two companies haven't abandoned plans to commercialize SED TVs. But further delays are inevitable. SED is now studying the possibility of small-lot production in July. That means the earliest it could ship SED sets to Japanese retailers is late summer. Retailers in other parts of the world won't likely get their first batch until early 2008, since SED production isn't scheduled to be full-scale until the last quarter of 2007.

Both companies think SEDs can drive the TV industry forward and give them a leg up on bigger rivals Samsung Electronics, Sony (SNE), and Sharp. Toshiba wants to be more than a bit player in the LCD TV market. Selling pricey high-end TVs is just what it needs to fatten margins and shield itself from sharply falling prices of other flat TVs. Meanwhile, Canon would finally sell the most coveted of consumer electronics without hurting its existing business supplying LCD TV makers with equipment used to make specialized glass panels.

Energy-Efficient Technology
Yet the longer the two wait to get their product out, the greater the risk of their being left behind in the global flat-TV race. Last year, the flat-panel market doubled to an estimated 54.3 million sets, according to market-research firm DisplaySearch.

This year is expected to be another one of big gains, with DisplaySearch forecasting a 52% jump in shipments to more than 82.5 million. By 2008, analysts expect flat TVs to exceed 100 million units annually, outselling the traditional picture-tube sets that are more common in developing countries.

SED certainly boasts plenty of promise. Its core technology actually resembles last-generation cathode-ray-tube TVs in that each of the thousands of pixels (or dots of color) created from tiny electrons acts like a microscopic version of a tube set. However, picture quality is superior to anything on the market now, and SED sets are also far more energy-efficient, the Japanese backers claim.

Despite investing hundreds of millions of dollars in SEDs, Canon (which has been at work on SEDs since 1984) and Toshiba now face the prospect of higher costs. They had plans to build a new $1.5-billion SED-panel plant at a Toshiba complex in Taishi, in western Japan. However, the start of construction is likely on hold for now.

Toshiba and Canon may have little choice but to renegotiate the terms of their alliance. One likely move would be to give Canon a bigger majority in SED. Nano-Proprietary may fire back with demands for a licensing deal with Toshiba or a portion of profits. If SED is ever to get off the ground, Toshiba and Canon might want to end the legal delay as quickly as they can.

ecow
01-12-07, 05:04 PM
Vizio is bedroom TV quality. Go DLP or Plasma where serious TV is going to be watched. there really is an appreciable difference between Sony/Panasonic and Vizio on picture quality.

It all depends on how you value your money. I believe I know a lot about TV technology and I don't think the difference on most of these is worth the $1000 difference in many cases. If I had an extra million to throw around then I might think different because $1000 would not seem like much. The panasonic might be a better deal overall than the vizio but frys has never done well for me on more expensive items.

SoTexBear
01-12-07, 07:16 PM
Old_Timer,

You're in the minority if you were to post that opinion on some of the HDTV message boards.

Vizio may not be a high end name, but the quality is there. The hardware is shared with either Philips or Samsung.

I just got back from Costco where we compared the $1650 Vizio 47" to the $2800 Sony 42". $1,150 more for a TV that is 5" smaller, isn't 1080p and does not have a QAM tuner? Hmmm. I don't think so.

Old_Timer
01-12-07, 07:47 PM
My opinion based on ownership of Vizio and Panasonic. I can see a difference, prefer the panasonic, and think that the Panasonic is worth the money. Of course, this is highly individualistic, and just posting what I thought.

SoTexBear
01-12-07, 10:17 PM
I currently own 2 Panasonics. I've always liked Panny over Sony, etc. I've just been impressed w/Vizio TVs (they are the fastest growing brand).

BHJ
01-12-07, 10:18 PM
i like orion.

good stuff.

SoTexBear
01-12-07, 10:35 PM
The Top 5 37" TVs (http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,127742-c,lcd/article.html)

jstins
01-13-07, 08:02 AM
How do you overcome the high speed blurring effect of Flat Panel LCDs?

SoTexBear
01-13-07, 08:30 AM
How do you overcome the high speed blurring effect of Flat Panel LCDs?

Many of the newer LCDs have no noticeable blurring relative to plasmas. Just make sure you view sports on the LCD prior to purchasing.

jstins
01-13-07, 09:09 AM
My inlaws just bought a brand new LCD flat pannel and it blurrs badly.

turk4037
01-13-07, 09:47 AM
Hopefully they bought it from Costco so they can return it easily.


My inlaws just bought a brand new LCD flat pannel and it blurrs badly.

turk4037
01-13-07, 09:48 AM
Does anyone know the story behind Vizio? It is a fascinating story.

turk4037
01-13-07, 09:55 AM
Wow!


Yahoo Tech: Vizio's $3,000 60-Inch Plasma TV
Product Reviews | Jan 11, 2007
Yahoo! Tech
Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:23PM EST

Vizio has just turned the big-screen TV market on its head with the announcement of a 60-inch plasma retailing at $3,000. Take a look at the video to see for yourself, but I can tell you that the image was bright and clear, the design specs on the monitor aesthetically pleasing, and IT'S A 60-INCH PLASMA FOR $3,000!!!

High-def standards these days top out at 1080p, and this monitor is 1080i, which means that it doesn't have the absolute highest resolution out there, but to the naked eye, it looked great. If you want more information on the 1080p/1080i difference (it's not that significant in real-world use).

turk4037
01-13-07, 03:23 PM
The new Vizio 47" LCD is in stock at Costco today. It's list price is $1899 and there is a $250 off coupon available starting on Monday. You can buy it today and come back on Monday and get your $250 rebate then, according to the guy I spoke to at Costco.

SoTexBear
01-13-07, 03:25 PM
Went ahead and got the 37" Vizio LCD for $899. It's in the living room but will be moved to the bedroom or gameroom within a year. The 47" was nice, but I couldn't justify paying twice as much as the 37" - even if that is a great deal.

Paying $15 for regular cable but I'm watching the NFL playoffs in HD...go figure.

The cable companies don't advertise that if you have a QAM tuner in your TV, you can pickup the basic HD channels (NBC, ABC, CBS, PBS). Looks incredible.

I'll hookup my HDMI DVD player later to see how that performs.

SoTexBear
01-13-07, 03:26 PM
Plus, the 37" fit in the cabinet we already have...just barely.

turk4037
01-13-07, 11:52 PM
A QAM tuner is present in some new digital televisions and similar devices. It enables direct reception of digital cable channels without the use of a set-top box. QAM stands for "quadrature amplitude modulation," the format by which digital cable channels are encoded and transmitted via cable. QAM tuners can be likened to the cable equivalent of an ATSC tuner which is required to receive over-the-air (OTA) digital channels broadcast by local television stations. Many new digital televisions contain both and are labeled "with ATSC/QAM Tuner". Unlike the case with ATSC tuners there is no FCC requirement that QAM tuners be included in new television sets. However, there is a loophole and a television can still be sold without any tuner, if it is labeled as a monitor and not advertised as a television.

An integrated QAM tuner allows the free reception of unscrambled digital programming sent "in the clear" by cable providers, which must include local HD channels {FCC regulations} (many metropolitan areas now have 7 or 8 HD local channels); however most digital channels are scrambled because the providers consider them to be extra-cost options and not part of the "basic cable" package. Which channels are scrambled varies greatly from location to location, and can change over time. In the United States a television that is labeled digital cable ready can have a CableCARD installed by the cable provider to unscramble the protected channels, allowing subscribers to tune all authorized digital channels without the use of a set-top box.