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jumpinjoe
05-15-05, 05:56 PM
Is this weekend's performance one of the poorest in recent history in men's track? What has happened to the team? There are 45 listed on the roster, and we have qualifiers in just a few events. No 4x100, no one in 100, 200 or any field events.

GarlandBear84
05-15-05, 06:01 PM
See my other thread. We're in 11th place out of 12. Poor. No depth. Too much concentration in a few events.

jumpinjoe
05-15-05, 06:32 PM
It seems as though too much concentration, but that is not the case....however, when you have 45 on the roster, and only 6 of them are listed as 400, that is not a concentration. What appears to be a concentration is that the 400 is where we have more than one in the finals. We should have at least one in the finals in every event, and in some, more than one. Clearly, we have no weight men, since Clyde has never had success with weightmen. The last one to place was Jim Lancaster, and Clyde inherited him from Jack Patterson.

Are the other 30+ guys just walkon's who are wasting Clyde's time? Title IX cut severely into track scholarships...is this the effect of that? When I seen Texas Tech with 3 in the 400 IH, and Nebraska with 4 qualified in the 110 HH, surely they are developing depth with partials, and what the participant has to pay is a lot cheaper in those schools than what a partial will have to pay at Baylor.

GarlandBear84
05-15-05, 06:38 PM
Yes, that is the main thing that hurts us. Walk-ons and partials generally can't afford BU. We'll never have the depth to win the Big 12, but we can excel like last year and finish 7th in the nation.

My comment was mainly because Teter and Mutai got 7th and 8th in the 400. Those 3 points weren't worth the effort if those guys are too gassed and we don't win the 4x400.

txkypreacherskid
05-15-05, 06:42 PM
I'm sure this is very frustrating to someone like you, jumpinjoe, who contributed so much in track, when you were at Baylor. But I guess this is one of the sad realities, that has resulted from the high tuition at Baylor now.

jumpinjoe
05-15-05, 07:31 PM
What I am concerned about is the far reaching effect it may have...the boy from California may rethink his committment as a result of this, for he is not buying into a one man track team. The same for Qieto. It will take the football athlete to compete in track for Baylor to have any shot of respectibility in the Big 12 meet. How many footballers went to the Big 12 meet? Did Ziegler come out this year? I haven't heard his name mentioned with respect to track? Or did Guymo decide that his participation in spring football trumped his participation in track?

jumpinjoe
05-15-05, 07:35 PM
I'm sure this is very frustrating to someone like you, jumpinjoe, who contributed so much in track, when you were at Baylor. But I guess this is one of the sad realities, that has resulted from the high tuition at Baylor now.


Unfortunately, Title IX is very frustrating to me. Not to rehash this again, but it does descrimiate based on sex, which is what it is intended to equalize. Eighteen scholys for women and 11 for men is not equality in track and field.

CTbruin
05-15-05, 07:36 PM
I'm sure this is very frustrating to someone like you, jumpinjoe, who contributed so much in track, when you were at Baylor. But I guess this is one of the sad realities, that has resulted from the high tuition at Baylor now.

Baseball has the same issues and they are first in the league.

GarlandBear84
05-15-05, 07:36 PM
GuyMo didn't let DZ compete in track. He would have let him go to track practice after completing the spring football workouts, but who can do both? Guys like that can help score points in track should be able to skip spring drills. Braelon and Jamen Saziru were academically ineligible.

jumpinjoe
05-15-05, 07:45 PM
In defense of Guymo, and this is a track guy defending him, when trying to rebuild a program, he has to have tunnell vision for a while. I don't disagree on doing that, for we need to get the football program back to respectibility. I'm just disappointed in the output from the other 40 on the track roster.

I guess in my day, Bridgers had a better program up and running, and was more agreeable to letting the footballer participate in track. Off the top of my head, I can think of Dwight Hood, shot, Greg Pipes, shot, Bill Witcher, discus, Jackie Allen, sprints, Steve Lane, hurdles, Max Emfinger, hurdles, and Harlan Lane, who did both.

txkypreacherskid
05-15-05, 07:48 PM
CTbruin, you have a good point. I guess with GuyMo's decision not to allow the dual sport guys to participate in track, that handicaps what Coach Hart can do.

Is there a conference rule about how many assistant track coaches a school can have? It seems like we never have any guys in the weight events.

jumpinjoe
05-15-05, 07:59 PM
There may very well be a rule limited the number of coaches, but realistically Baylor is limited more by budget than the rule. The last good weight guys were Frank Mazza and Jim Lancaster. Their coach was a football coach on Bridgers staff.

txkypreacherskid
05-15-05, 08:35 PM
LSU freshman football player Xavier Carter, a wide receiver, won the 200meters at the SEC track meet.

.................................................. .

AllTrax Timing - Contractor License

SEC Outdoor T & F Championships
host school: Vanderbilt Univ. - Nashville, TN
May 12 - 15, 2005

Event 6 Men 200 Meter Dash
================================================== ==========================
NCAA D1 Rgnl: R 21.19
SEC Meet: S 19.86 2002 Justin Gatlin, Tennessee
VU Stadium: V 20.37 2004 Mardy Scales, MTSU
Collegiate: C 19.86 2002 Justin Gatlin, Tennessee
American: A 19.32 1996 Michael Johnson
World: W 19.32 1996 Michael Johnson
Name Year School Finals Wind Points
================================================== ==========================
Finals
1 Carter, Xavier FR Louisiana St. 20.16V 1.3 10
2 Spearmon, Wallace SO Arkansas 20.25V 1.3 8
3 Gay, Tyson SR Arkansas 20.39R 1.3 6
4 Mullings, Steve JR Mississippi St. 20.48R 1.3 5
5 Farmer, Kyle SR Florida 20.70R 1.3 4
6 Williams, Rubin FR Tennessee 20.79R 1.3 3
7 Martin, Rodney SR So. Carolina 20.92R 1.3 2
8 Ashley, Jamel SR Mississippi St. 21.04R 1.3 1
================================================== ===========================
Men - Team Rankings - 18 Events Scored
================================================== ===========================
1) Arkansas 125 2) Florida 104
3) Tennessee 102 4) Georgia 81
5) Auburn 67 6) Louisiana St. 62
7) Mississippi St. 57 8) Alabama 33
9) Kentucky 28 10) So. Carolina 26
11) Mississippi 16

GarlandBear84
05-15-05, 08:45 PM
Man, X was smoking and beating Spearmon is quite an accomplishment! He'll probably be in the next Olympics.

txkypreacherskid
05-15-05, 08:49 PM
Yeah, he's a stud. He also ran a leg on LSU's 4x100 relay team that came in second to Florida.

Preyst
05-15-05, 08:59 PM
It's tough to field a team that can be competitive in the BigXII on 12.5 scholarships considering our high tuition. To give an example of the kinds of walk-ons Nebraska gets, Dusty Stamer was the national champion in the 60 meters indoors this year and was a walk-on when he enrolled at Nebraska.

Injuries and grades really hurt us this year. Not having Jaman and Braelon in the sprints (not to mention being able to field a competitive 4x1) really hurt as well as losing Jeremy Wariner to the pro-circuit; not to mention the distance crew has been racked by fluke injuries or else they could have contributed some points as well. But don't worry too much guys, everything goes in circles. We'll be back in a few years competing on the conference and national scenes.

txkypreacherskid
05-15-05, 09:03 PM
Xavier Carter also ran the opening leg on LSU's 4x400 relay team, that came in a very close second to Florida.

GarlandBear84
05-15-05, 09:29 PM
txky, we're expecting your Kerron Clement update.

txkypreacherskid
05-15-05, 09:59 PM
He won the 400 hurdles, anchored the winning 4x1 and 4x4 relays, and placed 5th in the 110 hurdles.

boxster
05-16-05, 07:21 AM
In defense of Guymo, and this is a track guy defending him, when trying to rebuild a program, he has to have tunnell vision for a while. I don't disagree on doing that, for we need to get the football program back to respectibility.


Very wise statement for the short-term. Eventually, I'm sure we'll be able to the football team's speed for the benefit of the track program, but not quite yet.

Baylor Dan
05-16-05, 09:23 AM
Baseball has the same issues and they are first in the league.Baseball does not have the same issues, and it's more than having just 11.7 scholarships compared to track's 12.6.

The black athlete is vital to track's success and full scholarships, or at least big ones, are needed to get quality recruits. Baseball families can typically afford a bigger portion of the tuition. The baseball team also relies on academic scholarships to bridge the partial scholarship gap and that is not as likely with the black athlete. Sad but true.

Steve Smith must be part magician to juggle his restricted scholarship situation as well as he does. Clyde Hart is forced to value quality over quantity in his recruiting and must forgo competing for the conference championship and point to the nationals.

GreenAndBearIt
05-16-05, 09:39 AM
Nevertheless, I don't remember BU track ever finishing next to last in a conference meet.

Fuzzy Wuzzy
05-16-05, 09:55 AM
Here is the reason why track and field is getting the short end of the stick from the NCAA:

The 11.5 scholarships that men's track and field is given accounts for 3 (that's right three) men's sports: cross country, indoor track, and outdoor track. So, out of our 8 men's sports, 11.5 scholarships go to thee of them. It doesn't matter if this is Baylor, UT, Florida or wherever. Folks, that kind of math by the NCAA is just plain wrong.

I think there were a lot of factors adding to an 11th place finish for us. The above is just one. I'm VERY disappointed in the performance. We never pulled that when I ran. We were a private school then, too, so that argument may hold why we may finish fourth our fifth, but 11th is terrible.

BTW-- the last weight man to do anything at a national level was Marvin Lewis.

FW

jumpinjoe
05-16-05, 10:12 AM
FuzWuz, its not like different runners participate in each of the three. I ran cross country, ran indoor, and ran outdoor, and I didn't get any more or less scholarship for it. They are eash different seasons for T&F to train year around.

My bad on Marvin Lewis.....and there may be some more, its just that Coach doesn't recruit weightmen.

As far as the performance, you have to put the poor showing on the nonperforming roster.

txkypreacherskid
05-16-05, 10:18 AM
That's why I was so disappointed Baylor didn't sign Scott Sellars. He could have given Baylor huge points in all three jumping events.

Baylor Dan
05-16-05, 10:41 AM
Fuzzy, men's track gets 12.6 scholarships, not 11.5.

jumpinjoe
05-16-05, 10:55 AM
Texas Tech gets the same 12.6 scholys, and they won the Big 12. They beat us badly in the middle sprints, the events that we recruit: 200, 400, 400h and 800.

By the way, Tech has 40 on their roster, and we have 45.

Baylor Dan
05-16-05, 11:12 AM
Come on joe; it's well known that the state schools have the advantage over private schools in regard to the split scholarship situation. Compare Baylor to someone like Stanford maybe, but not Texas Tech--or Arkansas, a really great track school.

Simpdog
05-16-05, 11:24 AM
it's frustrating to me too...

jumpinjoe
05-16-05, 11:36 AM
Dan, it preposterous for you to make that claim.....especially considering Baseball splits their schollys and will become Big 12 champion, womens basketball just won a NC, Baylor women placed 4th in track, tennis and all the other success stories here at Baylor. Nor is it a black athlete can't afford Baylor problem. I'm frustrated because we placed 11th. This is a failure to perform problem....

jumpinjoe
05-16-05, 11:41 AM
Texas Tech's success can be attributed to a coach and nothing more. Kelty brought the Tech program up from the grave where it had languished there forever. In five years, he brought the program from outhouse to the penthouse. We have a great coach. I just don't know why we didn't get the performance from the roster that we got in the past.

highplains
05-16-05, 12:07 PM
Tech coach is Wes Kittley. jumpinjoe, you are exactly right. They had never done anything before he showed up. We should make a better showing teamwise.

Baylor Dan
05-16-05, 12:14 PM
Dan, it preposterous for you to make that claim....It's very clear to me, as I tried to explain above, that state schools have a clear advantage on the split scholarship situation and that baseball is indeed different from track.

This is a down year for our men's track program. I'm more concerned with Hart's lack of a single outdoor men's championship than I am about this year's 11th place finish. We would have been better if txky had delivered his hometown boy Kerron Clement to Baylor.

boxster
05-16-05, 12:21 PM
Dan, it preposterous for you to make that claim.....especially considering Baseball splits their schollys and will become Big 12 champion, womens basketball just won a NC, Baylor women placed 4th in track, tennis and all the other success stories here at Baylor. Nor is it a black athlete can't afford Baylor problem. I'm frustrated because we placed 11th. This is a failure to perform problem....

Baseball his helped because many of the best college prospects come from the wealthier suburbs...not the case for track...so partial scholarships are a very big deal in track, not quite as much in baseball.

Fuzzy Wuzzy
05-16-05, 12:36 PM
jumpin--

You missed my point (I think). What is ironic to me is that for three sports that count in team competition, there are only a handful of scholarships. I know that some of the same people compete in all three seasons (most in two of them), but one would think that the scholarship limit would be higher.

Otherwise, I'm right with you. Terrible results on the track this weekend. We have better athletes than 11th place. Also, you are 100% right on Tech. They are landing athletes in the exact same events in which we excel and Coach Hart aims his recruiting efforts. That worries me-- I hope it's not a leading indicator for what is to come.

FW

zebbie
05-16-05, 01:25 PM
jumpin--

You missed my point (I think). What is ironic to me is that for three sports that count in team competition, there are only a handful of scholarships. I know that some of the same people compete in all three seasons (most in two of them), but one would think that the scholarship limit would be higher.

Otherwise, I'm right with you. Terrible results on the track this weekend. We have better athletes than 11th place. Also, you are 100% right on Tech. They are landing athletes in the exact same events in which we excel and Coach Hart aims his recruiting efforts. That worries me-- I hope it's not a leading indicator for what is to come.

FW

I hope we can hang on to kitley. One good thing is that he is from West Texas (coached previously at ACU). We are going to eventually upgrade our track facility, but our football stadium still needs work.

CTbruin
05-16-05, 02:50 PM
Baseball his helped because many of the best college prospects come from the wealthier suburbs...not the case for track...so partial scholarships are a very big deal in track, not quite as much in baseball.

but.....baseball doesn't get the "need" based financial aid that track could. Don't you think?

GarlandBear84
05-16-05, 03:19 PM
It bothered me that TT finished 2nd, 3rd and 4th in the 400 while we got 1st, 7th and 8th. Then we barely nosed them out for 1st in the 4x400.

Yogi
05-16-05, 04:16 PM
I'm sure this is very frustrating to someone like you, jumpinjoe, who contributed so much in track, when you were at Baylor. But I guess this is one of the sad realities, that has resulted from the high tuition at Baylor now.

I understand your argument here, but let's not excuse a poor showing on tuition. We aren't the most expensive school in America and we are nowhere near beaing the most expensive school with a track program.

Watch how many private schools finish in the Top 20 this year in track. Then compare their tuition to Baylor.

You will find that most private schools with major athletic programs are on par with Baylor University in terms of tuition or higher.

Charging $25 per semester hour, even $250 per semester hour isn't even an option for Baylor unless some of us can step up with billion dollar gifts.

jumpinjoe
05-16-05, 04:56 PM
jumpin--

You missed my point (I think).

FW

FuzWuz, I got your point, I don't agree with it the way you make it.

Though we both will try to make the same point.

11.5 scholys don't even throw a blanket over the 16-18 events, much less provide any depth. This is where track and field is shortchanged. Its like trying to field a competative basketball team with 3 scholys, or a golf team with two scholys, or a baseball team with 6 scholys. While I realize that all sports have the same problem, it is exacerbated with track and field because three or more can participate in one event and win points.

jumpinjoe
05-16-05, 05:00 PM
It bothered me that TT finished 2nd, 3rd and 4th in the 400 while we got 1st, 7th and 8th. Then we barely nosed them out for 1st in the 4x400.

Guys who run the 400 can also run the 200 and the 800. Its been these events that we have picked up a lot of points in the past. If you look at the results, they scored heavy in our bread and butter events...the 200, 400H, 400, and 800.

Baylor Dan
05-16-05, 05:10 PM
Here's a breakdown on some sports requiring partial scholarships:

Men's cross country/track and field 12.6
Women's cross country/track and field 18

Baseball 11.7
Softball 12

Men's Tennis 4.5
Women's Tennis 8

And, there's no relief in sight from Title IX. Somebody do something!

midgett
05-16-05, 07:52 PM
We've had reasonable success in track the last few years. We do have limited scholarships. We lost 12-16 points when Wariner turned pro (1st or 2nd in 400, place in 200, relay same result). We had injuries (Davis) and some "stuck" at football. That could have been a few more points. Finally, we just had a poor year. Our current team didn't pan out as expected when recruited.

It's a disappointment but sometimes you just have a bad year. That is us this year. Usually in conference meets, it helps for your talent to be a foot deep and a mile wide (Nebraska). At nationals, it is better to be a mile deep and a foot wide. This model has helped us place in the Top 10 nationally quite often.

This year just stinks. We can't do anything about it now. While Hart may retire anyday, I prefer not to fire him for our performance at the Big 12 meet. He's earned a second chance.

Preyst
05-16-05, 07:59 PM
Texas Tech - 13 JUCO transfers, 3 Kenyans, 1 Olympic Trials Champion, and an All-American pole vaulter...all on 12.5 scholarships. Anyone else smell something fishy?

As for our program, whether you want to admit it or not, our tuition cripples us on the recruiting front. Texas A&M's "book" scholarship would be twice as much money as what our "book" scholarship would be. For us, we either try and get a few adequate recruits for 1 scholarship, or we get 1 of the best in the nation for that full scholarship. Since we've gone the second route, that's why we're successful at the national level but not the conference level. Just look at our girls...with just 6 more scholarships they've become a conference power.

GUYMOBEAR
05-16-05, 08:48 PM
The fact TEXAS TECH accepts D's as a passing grade is one of the main reasons they have gone from last to first. Most if not all of the JUCO's could not transfer to BU, TU or A&M because D's are not passing grade east of Lubbock this per a Big 12 track coach. Why would a track athlete want to train in Lubbock in the spring unless he had very few choices. Travel to meets are 6 hous or more, wind wind and more wind along with dirt, sand storms and the cold. Training on a indoor track that has no straight away isn't the answer. When the JUCO transfer rules change they will go back to being last.

zebbie
05-17-05, 08:19 AM
The fact TEXAS TECH accepts D's as a passing grade is one of the main reasons they have gone from last to first. Most if not all of the JUCO's could not transfer to BU, TU or A&M because D's are not passing grade east of Lubbock this per a Big 12 track coach. Why would a track athlete want to train in Lubbock in the spring unless he had very few choices. Travel to meets are 6 hous or more, wind wind and more wind along with dirt, sand storms and the cold. Training on a indoor track that has no straight away isn't the answer. When the JUCO transfer rules change they will go back to being last.

I don't think we accept Ds..... As for transfer requirements, they are the same as every other school in Texas.


wind wind and more wind along with dirt, sand storms and the cold. It's not like we are in Siberia. sure, there's some wind and we get some dust, but it's certainly not like that every day. I've been here since August and I'd be surprised if we've had more than two full weeks of dust.

The reason we have done better is b/c of our coach-- he won titles at ACU and he is apparently the real deal. No different than y'all getting drew or mulkey.

Fuzzy Wuzzy
05-17-05, 08:54 AM
We are all correct in what we are saying. It was simply a down year for BU track due to many reasons. No one is saying get rid of Coach Hart. He's earned his place many, many times over. If it wasn't Tech, it would've been UT or A&M that won conference.

However, I don't think anyone needs to make excuses for an 11th place finish. Not too good. I'm sure the coaching staff and athletes are more hacked off than the fans and former athletes. I doubt we will ever win the conference meet, but we often finish the best out of the Big12 at nationals. That has and will be the way Baylor recruits track and field as does Stanford, TCU, etc

FW

Yogi
05-17-05, 11:07 AM
Check out the Tech coach's resume.

He has had success everywhere he has gone.

GUYMOBEAR
05-17-05, 06:46 PM
Zebbie your school and Kansas State are the only big 12 schools that accept D's I have that on record from a coach that was not able to recruit most of your JUCO transfers. This same coach had kids at ACU that couldn't get into the SWC or Big 12 schools either. Go ask Corkey he will tell you the advantage your coach has in recruiting JUCO's vs BU, TU and A&M. By the way I grew up in the Panhandle and was offered a full ride to run at Tech for Corkey I should know about the wind, dirt, cold and more wind. I had 1 nice Sat in my last two years in high school up there.
Congrats on the win however it wasn't a miracle it was taking advantage different set of transfer rules.

zebbie
05-18-05, 10:53 AM
How many students took advantage of the different set of rules?

BTW, if they had a few Ds, they still had to meet basic transfer guidelines-- 2.25 GPA with 24 hours.....

One nice Saturday in two years? You are full of crap. It's just not that bad up here in terms of dust.

txkypreacherskid
05-18-05, 12:22 PM
I think we need to give Tech their proper due, for hiring a great track coach. My daughter has really enjoyed living out in that area the last three years.

zebbie
05-18-05, 01:06 PM
I think we need to give Tech their proper due, for hiring a great track coach. My daughter has really enjoyed living out in that area the last three years.

There you go-- if MGM likes the South Plains, end of story, it kicks ass out here....

Yogi
05-18-05, 01:26 PM
Other than the dust, the smell of natural gas and cow dung, and the remoteness, it ain't half bad.

The problem is that without those things, it just wouldn't be Lubbock.