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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JXL View Post
    This was a set-up to try to trap Jesus. They brought Him a woman taken in adultery ... um, where was the man who was committing adultery with her? Why wasn't he taken too?

    And note the last thing He told her ... "Go, and sin no more." He recognized the trap which the Pharisees had tried to set, but neither did He condone her behavior.
    I get another message from this passage: That everyone has sinned, and that judging the behavior of others is best left up to God. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus said.

    Certainly, Jesus didn't condone the sin of adultery, but neither did he condone stoning the woman for her adultery. It is interesting that the story doesn't mention her partner, even though she was "caught."

    As long as abortion is legal, people should leave the judgment of that act to God.

  2. #22
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    We are the ones that make it legal. What if we have made something legal in our nation that God despises? A Christians attitude ought to be one that is constantly wanting to be in God's will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheresmyboobear View Post
    We are the ones that make it legal. What if we have made something legal in our nation that God despises? A Christians attitude ought to be one that is constantly wanting to be in God's will.
    We don't live in theocracy. Thank God.

    And execution by the state is also legal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx220 View Post
    I get another message from this passage: That everyone has sinned, and that judging the behavior of others is best left up to God. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus said.

    Certainly, Jesus didn't condone the sin of adultery, but neither did he condone stoning the woman for her adultery. It is interesting that the story doesn't mention her partner, even though she was "caught."

    As long as abortion is legal, people should leave the judgment of that act to God.
    Are you not interested in what God's judgement is going to be? Do you care what God thinks about abortion? If I were in position to decide on whether or not we should make it legal for women to abort their children, I believe I would want to know what the Judge had to say about it. I really don't think he is saying "don't worry about it, I'll take care of all that later. Just keep being your own judge".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx220 View Post
    We don't live in theocracy. Thank God.

    And execution by the state is also legal.
    You're not making a judgement about capital punishment are you?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx220 View Post
    I get another message from this passage: That everyone has sinned, and that judging the behavior of others is best left up to God. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus said.

    Certainly, Jesus didn't condone the sin of adultery, but neither did he condone stoning the woman for her adultery. It is interesting that the story doesn't mention her partner, even though she was "caught."

    As long as abortion is legal, people should leave the judgment of that act to God.
    The story doesn't mention the woman's partner because he was irrelevant - it was never about adultery, it was an attempt to trap Jesus into saying something for which the Pharisees could condemn him.*

    Scripture clearly tells us that we are to exercise judgment - 1 Thess. 5:21 (Prove [i.e. test] all things; hold fast that which is good). The notion that we are not to judge the morality of actions simply because they are legal is obvious nonsense - the American Anti-Slavery Society was founded by devout Christians at a time when slavery was legal.

    Instead, we are cautioned against acting in self-righteous judgment (hence Matt. 7:1-5). This is a worthwhile and valid admonition that certainly transcends political bounds.

    *(I've also heard it speculated that the Pharisees did not capture the woman's partner because he was a fellow Pharisee, which is kind of amusing but unsubstantiated).
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheresmyboobear View Post
    Are you not interested in what God's judgement is going to be? Do you care what God thinks about abortion? If I were in position to decide on whether or not we should make it legal for women to abort their children, I believe I would want to know what the Judge had to say about it. I really don't think he is saying "don't worry about it, I'll take care of all that later. Just keep being your own judge".
    No, and yes.

    Fearing judgment has just never been a big part of my faith, such that remains.

    And I do not believe in imposing my religious beliefs on others through the government; separation of church and state is a truly brilliant aspect of American government that we got totally right.

    Many in this country believe we are nothing more than biological organisms. The older I get, the closer I move to that view. Individual faith is a wonderful thing, I think. Organized religion, not so much.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JXL View Post
    The story doesn't mention the woman's partner because he was irrelevant - it was never about adultery, it was an attempt to trap Jesus into saying something for which the Pharisees could condemn him.*

    Scripture clearly tells us that we are to exercise judgment - 1 Thess. 5:21 (Prove [i.e. test] all things; hold fast that which is good). The notion that we are not to judge the morality of actions simply because they are legal is obvious nonsense - the American Anti-Slavery Society was founded by devout Christians at a time when slavery was legal.

    Instead, we are cautioned against acting in self-righteous judgment (hence Matt. 7:1-5). This is a worthwhile and valid admonition that certainly transcends political bounds.

    *(I've also heard it speculated that the Pharisees did not capture the woman's partner because he was a fellow Pharisee, which is kind of amusing but unsubstantiated).
    You read this story like a legal problem.

    I found a different meaning in it.

    We are both reading it in translation. And I don't believe in divine inspiration, inerrancy and have worked all my life as a editor and know how the whole meaning of a story can change with one word or the wrong nuance.

    And one more thing: "The story doesn't mention the woman's partner because he was irrelevant..." Neither do the abortion stories, and the partner there is decidedly not irrelevant but is largely missing...and not just in the debate over abortion.
    Last edited by Jinx220; 03-13-12 at 02:57 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JXL View Post
    The story doesn't mention the woman's partner because he was irrelevant - it was never about adultery, it was an attempt to trap Jesus into saying something for which the Pharisees could condemn him.*

    Scripture clearly tells us that we are to exercise judgment - 1 Thess. 5:21 (Prove [i.e. test] all things; hold fast that which is good). The notion that we are not to judge the morality of actions simply because they are legal is obvious nonsense - the American Anti-Slavery Society was founded by devout Christians at a time when slavery was legal.

    Instead, we are cautioned against acting in self-righteous judgment (hence Matt. 7:1-5). This is a worthwhile and valid admonition that certainly transcends political bounds.

    *(I've also heard it speculated that the Pharisees did not capture the woman's partner because he was a fellow Pharisee, which is kind of amusing but unsubstantiated).
    Excellent post my brother.

  10. #30
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    I agree that a major point in John's telling of this story is to reveal the Pharisees' attempt to trap Jesus. But to say that "it was never about adultery" strikes me as going way too far. The story is just as much about Jesus' attitudes toward sin and condemnation as it is about a "gotcha" for the Pharisees. When you hear sermons on this text, they're almost always about judgment and mercy. Without the adultery, there is no "sinner" for Jesus to refuse to condemn.

  11. #31
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    It's about sin, judgement, condemnation, mercy and grace, and repentence, those few verses get to all those issues.

    The Pharisee's came with quick judgement, leading to condemnation.

    Our Lord and Savior came back with mercy and grace for a sinner.

    His admonition was to "repent" by going and sinning no more.

    The Pharisees all dropped their stones, realizing that yes they are guilty too of sin.

    The also were befuddled because all attempts to trap Jesus, the Living Word and God Incarnate, were thwarted.
    "Through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved."

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubbadog View Post
    I agree that a major point in John's telling of this story is to reveal the Pharisees' attempt to trap Jesus. But to say that "it was never about adultery" strikes me as going way too far. The story is just as much about Jesus' attitudes toward sin and condemnation as it is about a "gotcha" for the Pharisees. When you hear sermons on this text, they're almost always about judgment and mercy. Without the adultery, there is no "sinner" for Jesus to refuse to condemn.
    But it remains that sexual immorality is for whatever reason frowned upon by God because it is wicked.

    18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
    21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

    24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

    26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

    28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. - Romans 1: 18-32
    I think the key phrase in both this book and the Gospels is "the righteous will live by faith." I take that to mean those who are made righteous through the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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  13. #33
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    I've often pondered the origin of God's morality. Why is there a moral code? Why does God want us to limit our behaviors? And, I think the answer to that question has the same thing to do with the reason God has given us all the gift of free will.

    We've seem to lost touch with how important virtue is to living in a free society. God made us free men and women. We wanted our own freewill and so he gave it to us. It's not easy. We suffer sometimes, but that's also why God has constantly tried to teach us about what it means to be "righteous" and how to attain "righteousness" or the closest any human can come thereto. God wants us to live virtuous, giving and forgiving lives - not for his pleasure, but for our own good and our free will.

    In my opinion, God always knew that if he gave man free will, Man would destroy himself - and others. That's why he gave us the Law. That's why he gave his teachings of faith, hope and Love and that's why he gave us Jesus Christ. This was God's attempt to improve the way we live our lives so we can peacefully live with free will. Free will isn't a curse; it's a gift, but just as any special gift, it must be handled with extreme care. Many in today's society aren't taking responsibility for that gift.

    In the end, you just have to have faith and confidence that God's will will ultimately win out. The best way we can thank God for his generous gift is to take care of it and use it to spread his will among our brothers and sisters.
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  14. #34
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    Psalms 106: 37-39 They shed innocent blood,

    the blood of their sons and daughters,

    whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan,

    and the land was desecrated by their blood.

    39They defiled themselves by what they did;

    by their deeds they prostituted themselves.


    Jesus is the living Word indeed. So all scripture can be attributed to him, he is The Word come to life. Obviously he frowns on the shedding of "Innocent" blood. To me there is no more innocent than the unborn. I do not believe Jesus would see the killing of a yet born child as anything other than the shedding of innocent blood.
    Last edited by Forest Bueller; 03-13-12 at 04:19 PM.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by JXL View Post
    The story doesn't mention the woman's partner because he was irrelevant - it was never about adultery, it was an attempt to trap Jesus into saying something for which the Pharisees could condemn him.*

    Scripture clearly tells us that we are to exercise judgment - 1 Thess. 5:21 (Prove [i.e. test] all things; hold fast that which is good). The notion that we are not to judge the morality of actions simply because they are legal is obvious nonsense - the American Anti-Slavery Society was founded by devout Christians at a time when slavery was legal.

    Instead, we are cautioned against acting in self-righteous judgment (hence Matt. 7:1-5). This is a worthwhile and valid admonition that certainly transcends political bounds.

    *(I've also heard it speculated that the Pharisees did not capture the woman's partner because he was a fellow Pharisee, which is kind of amusing but unsubstantiated).
    I've done you an injustice with my last post.

    I didn't respond to your good and thoughtful comments about the issue of judgment because of my irritation that so much of the abortion debate ignores the facts that: (1) It takes two, and (2) men are very present in the abortion debate, but (3) too often absent when it comes to child support, support of public schools, health care and support of other resources women who are destined to become single parents need, and (4) most men on this forum are, in fact, actively hostile to needy children once they have safely exited the womb.

    But your point was well taken and courteously expressed, and deserved a better and nicer response than I gave.

    I agree that we'recalled to use our own personal judgment regarding the morality of actions such as slavery even if they are legal.

    I am less convinced that we are called to judge the lives of others without accounting for our own human frailties and failures--which is what the Pharisees asked Jesus to do. They all evaporated when he suggested that any among them without sin cast the first stone.

    I don't equate abortion with slavery, child neglect or the death penalty, and I think there is some truth to the oft-repeated barb that if men could become pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

    I am confident that a majority of women (and men) favor choice (and widespread availability of contraception) and do not think their actions early in a pregnancy should be anyone's business but theirs. I think such an intensely personal and private decision should be theirs to make and any judgment from God theirs to face.

    I also think a lot of people publicly oppose abortion and quietly vote for it, a trend similar to people who publicly said they would support a black candidate but didn't pull the lever in the voting booth - or, possibly, in some areas of the South, people who said they'd never vote for a black candidate who then quietly entered the voting booth and did.

    Here's my proof of that point: Even women/couples who thought they would never consider abortion as option may do so if confronted with the possibility of a Down's syndrome child. There's another thread about a Down's Syndrome case. The fact that more than 90% of pregnancies in which Down's is detected are terminated is evidence that people-both men and women- want this choice and will make it regardless of what they hear in the pew on Sunday and how much of a public outcry there is. You and most others on BF may judge it wrong, but many quietly don't.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...t=AbstractPlus
    They were highest following a prenatal diagnosis of Down syndrome (92 per cent; CI: 91 per cent to 93 per cent) and lowest following diagnosis of Klinefelter syndrome (58 per cent; CI: 50 per cent to 66 per cent). Where comparisons could be made, termination rates were similar in the 1990s to those reported in the 1980s.
    Last edited by Jinx220; 03-13-12 at 04:25 PM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yogi View Post
    But it remains that sexual immorality is for whatever reason frowned upon by God because it is wicked.
    This is why I tried to be careful in wording my post to say that Jesus refused to condemn the sinner instead of refusing to condemn the sin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Bueller View Post
    It's about sin, judgement, condemnation, mercy and grace, and repentence, those few verses get to all those issues.

    The Pharisee's came with quick judgement, leading to condemnation.

    Our Lord and Savior came back with mercy and grace for a sinner.

    His admonition was to "repent" by going and sinning no more.

    The Pharisees all dropped their stones, realizing that yes they are guilty too of sin.

    The also were befuddled because all attempts to trap Jesus, the Living Word and God Incarnate, were thwarted.
    Exactly. Unfortunately, Jinx's interpretation completely takes the passage out of context. This passage was not an admonition against distinguishing between right and wrong. It was not an admonition against taking a stand against immoral behavior. It was - as others pointed out above - an admonition against self-righteous and condemning judgment of the sinner. While Christ was not quick to condemn the woman, neither did he ignore the fact that the woman had engaged in sinful, immoral conduct. The idea that this passage somehow stands for the proposition that man cannot judge the practice of abortion as sinful is really just preposterous.

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    Some very smart people post here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheresmyboobear View Post
    Are you not interested in what God's judgement is going to be? Do you care what God thinks about abortion? If I were in position to decide on whether or not we should make it legal for women to abort their children, I believe I would want to know what the Judge had to say about it. I really don't think he is saying "don't worry about it, I'll take care of all that later. Just keep being your own judge".
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubbadog View Post
    This is why I tried to be careful in wording my post to say that Jesus refused to condemn the sinner instead of refusing to condemn the sin.
    I understand that, but you need to understand that the unrepentant sinner will be condemned - and the Bible is quite clear on that point.

    I would just read carefully and search your heart for the Truth. You have to remember that the Bible not only refers to condemnation for unrepentant sinners but also those who promote wicked and sinful acts to other human beings.

    And, I should probably add that is my belief that God doesn't really condemn you; you condemn yourself.
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