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  1. #1
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    Bears in the Pros - 2012

    4/10/12

    MLB
    David Murphy, 30 (Rangers): 5-for-12 (.417), 1 HR, 1 RBI, 0 BB, 4 K, 0 SB, 1.295 OPS
    Kelly Shoppach, 31 (Rays): 1-for-4 (.250), 0 HR, 0 RBI, 0 BB, 2 K, 0 SB, .750 OPS

    AAA
    Jeff Mandel, 26 (Nationals): 0-0, 0.00 ERA, 5.2 IP, 6 H, 1 BB, 1 K, 1.24 WHIP
    Kevin Russo, 27 (Yankees): 4-for-14 (.286), 0 HR, 1 RBI, 0 BB, 1 K, 0 SB, .571 OPS
    Drew Sutton, 28 (Braves): 2-for-15 (.133), 0 HR, 1 RBI, 2 BB, 3 K, 0 SB, .544 OPS
    Cory VanAllen, 27 (Nationals): 0-0, 13.50 ERA, 3.1 IP, 6 H, 5 BB, 1 K, 3.30 WHIP
    Beamer Weems, 24 (Padres): 4-for-14 (.286), 0 HR, 0 RBI, 1 BB, 2 K, 0 SB, .690 OPS

    AA
    Aaron Miller, 24 (Dodgers): 0-0, 3.38 ERA, 2.2 IP, 5 H, 1 BB, 3 K, 2.25 WHIP
    Shawn Tolleson, 24 (Dodgers): 0-0, 0.0 ERA, 1.0 IP, 0 H, 0 BB, 2 K, 0.00 WHIP
    Kendall Volz, 24 (Royals): 0-0, 0.00 ERA, 2.2 IP, 1 H, 0 BB, 2 K, 0.38 WHIP

    High A
    Gregg Glime, 24 (Marlins): 0-for-0 (.000), 0 HR, 0 RBI, 0 BB, 0 K, 0 SB, .000 OPS
    Michael Griffin, 28 (Reds): 0-0, 0.00 ERA, 2.0 IP, 2 H, 1 BB, 2 K, 1.50 WHIP
    Brooks Pinckard, 23 (Reds): 0-0, 9.00 ERA, 3.0 IP, 4 H, 1 BB, 1 K, 1.67 WHIP
    Mace Thurman, 25 (Reds): 0-0, 0.00 ERA, 0.0 IP, 0 H, 0 BB, 0 K, 0.00 WHIP

    Low A
    Raynor Campbell, 24 (Giants): 0-for-0 (.000), 0 HR, 0 RBI, 0 BB, 0 K, 0 SB, .000 OPS
    Logan Verrett, 21 (Mets): 0-0, 0.00 ERA, 5.0 IP, 2 H, 2 BB, 4 K, 0.80 WHIP
    Last edited by Texasjeremy; 04-11-12 at 09:56 AM.

  2. #2
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    Michael Griffin is pitching now? Wild.

  3. #3
    Thanks Texas Jeremy.

    Also Logan Verrett is pitching for the Savannah Sand Gnats

    0-0, 0.00 ERA, 5 IP, 2 H, 2 BB, 4 K, .80 WHIP

    ...and former Bear Tyler Collins is tearing it up in the Tigers organization hitting .706 on the early season for the Lakefield Tigers. Collins will play major league baseball before it is all said and done.
    Last edited by BUPIKE12; 04-10-12 at 03:21 PM.

  4. #4
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    Went to the San Antonio Missions game tonight and Kendal Volz pitched the 7th and 8th innings. They were down a bunch of runs at that point, but he pitched well, 0 hits, 0 walks, 3 k's.

    so for the year he's pitched 4.2 innings with 1 hit, 0 walks, and 5 k's.

  5. #5
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    That list, which doesn't contain a great many names, shows just how hard it is to get to the big leagues. It also suggests that the common mantra about how much talent we have year in and year out doesn't ring true. I would be curious to see how many players from our Big 12 rivals are on similar lists and how we stack up, number-wise.

  6. #6
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    I also wondered how the list compares with our competitors.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ysquarebear View Post
    That list, which doesn't contain a great many names, shows just how hard it is to get to the big leagues. It also suggests that the common mantra about how much talent we have year in and year out doesn't ring true. I would be curious to see how many players from our Big 12 rivals are on similar lists and how we stack up, number-wise.
    In my opinion, looking at a list of how many players a school has playing in MLB is a very poor way to determine how much talent a collegiate program has had.

    As you mentioned, it is flat out difficult to make it to the MLB level. It is the only sport where a player can get drafted in the first round, receive 7-figure signing bonus, and never make it the big leagues.

    There have been 8 Baylor players that have played under Coach Smith that have made a MLB appearance. Only 1 player from our CWS team has appeared in an MLB game. Does that mean that team was void of talent? No. The player from the CWS team that made it to the bigs, albeit briefly, was Kevin Russo. Russo had an excellent career for the Bears, but he wasn't even close to the best player on that 2005 team that had Mark McCormick, Trey Taylor, Cor VanAllen, Jeff Mandel, Abe Woody, Ryan LaMotta, Kyle Reynolds, Josh Ford, Zach Dillon etc. Only one player from our great 1999 team, Jason Jennings, was able to make it to MLB. Does that mean Jon Topolski, Josh Scott, and Matt Williams weren't talented? No.

    Just my 2 cents.

  8. #8
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    It doesnt mean they werent talented. It means they werent talented enough to play in the bigs. I know there are many variables but most players that are talented enough to play in the bigs play in the bigs.

  9. #9
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    Logan pitched last night and had 10K's and 0 walks

    http://savannahnow.com/sports/2012-0...5#.T4cS_9n4I6k
    Last edited by Aray; 04-12-12 at 12:50 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BUPIKE12 View Post
    In my opinion, looking at a list of how many players a school has playing in MLB is a very poor way to determine how much talent a collegiate program has had.

    As you mentioned, it is flat out difficult to make it to the MLB level. It is the only sport where a player can get drafted in the first round, receive 7-figure signing bonus, and never make it the big leagues.

    There have been 8 Baylor players that have played under Coach Smith that have made a MLB appearance. Only 1 player from our CWS team has appeared in an MLB game. Does that mean that team was void of talent? No. The player from the CWS team that made it to the bigs, albeit briefly, was Kevin Russo. Russo had an excellent career for the Bears, but he wasn't even close to the best player on that 2005 team that had Mark McCormick, Trey Taylor, Cor VanAllen, Jeff Mandel, Abe Woody, Ryan LaMotta, Kyle Reynolds, Josh Ford, Zach Dillon etc. Only one player from our great 1999 team, Jason Jennings, was able to make it to MLB. Does that mean Jon Topolski, Josh Scott, and Matt Williams weren't talented? No.

    Just my 2 cents.
    I probably should have clarified. I am surprised to find so few players from Baylor at ANY pro level, not just the majors. That's why I made the comment about the purported talent to play at the school. Generally -- and this is my two cents worth -- significantly talented players thrive at the next level (A to AA ball), anyway, and the elite players move beyond that. Certainly, injuries curtailed some careers, but we haven't had many Bears who were good college players become good pros, so I have to wonder if we had as much talent as billed.

    And, for the record, this isn't a "so that proves Smith has done a good job" talking point. I mainly wanted to point out -- via this list -- that it's extremely hard to get to the big leagues. I also would love to know how Baylor's number of pros (from A to the bigs) compares with our Big 12 rivals.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limited IQ Redneck in PU View Post
    I also wondered how the list compares with our competitors.
    The horn list is here:

    http://www.texassports.com/sports/m-...-pro-ball.html

  12. #12
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    Shoppach plays for the Red Sox not the Rays.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ysquarebear View Post
    I probably should have clarified. I am surprised to find so few players from Baylor at ANY pro level, not just the majors. That's why I made the comment about the purported talent to play at the school. Generally -- and this is my two cents worth -- significantly talented players thrive at the next level (A to AA ball), anyway, and the elite players move beyond that. Certainly, injuries curtailed some careers, but we haven't had many Bears who were good college players become good pros, so I have to wonder if we had as much talent as billed.

    And, for the record, this isn't a "so that proves Smith has done a good job" talking point. I mainly wanted to point out -- via this list -- that it's extremely hard to get to the big leagues. I also would love to know how Baylor's number of pros (from A to the bigs) compares with our Big 12 rivals.
    Ok, that makes more sense.

    Even if you include all levels of pro baseball, the size of the list is still not a good way to evaluate talent IMO. Former Baylor infielder Jace Brewer played 8 years of minor league baseball without making it to the majors. He is the exception, not the rule. There will be a few guys like Jace who are happy to spend 8 years chasing their dream of making it to the bigs, but those guys are few and far between. That list could be at least 20 names longer if it was based merely off of capability. The reality is, most of our players have played a year or two and then retire from baseball on their own accord. Once they realize their is little chance of them making it the majors, most of them decide they would rather finish school, start a family, and find a new career path etc.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Limited IQ Redneck in PU View Post
    It doesnt mean they werent talented. It means they werent talented enough to play in the bigs. I know there are many variables but most players that are talented enough to play in the bigs play in the bigs.
    Couldn't disagree more with this statement. NFL, yes. NBA, yes. MLB, no.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BUPIKE12 View Post
    Ok, that makes more sense.

    Even if you include all levels of pro baseball, the size of the list is still not a good way to evaluate talent IMO. Former Baylor infielder Jace Brewer played 8 years of minor league baseball without making it to the majors. He is the exception, not the rule. There will be a few guys like Jace who are happy to spend 8 years chasing their dream of making it to the bigs, but those guys are few and far between. That list could be at least 20 names longer if it was based merely off of capability. The reality is, most of our players have played a year or two and then retire from baseball on their own accord. Once they realize their is little chance of them making it the majors, most of them decide they would rather finish school, start a family, and find a new career path etc.
    Couldnt any school say this? Are the young men at Baylor unicorns that as a group choose different paths?

    I realize you disagree with my statement. Could you name a few players that could have played in the majors but chose not to play in the majors?

    If the pro scouts that actually make a living cant evaluate talent who can? Maybe I am wrong but I have always looked at the minors as a filter to screen players for the majors. Many go in, few get through.

    Please tell me a better way to judge talent. At the high school level talent is judged on potential. To get to the bigs, you have to have the talent level to compete.

    The size of the list shows how many players the pro scouts thought might have the skill to play for money.

  16. #16
    When you get to pro ball, the American kids run into a bunch of Latin kids. I've watched AA ball for years, and it is amazing what it takes to make it to the Show and stay for a few years. Any little glitch in a player's game can keep them from reaching their dream.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Limited IQ Redneck in PU View Post
    Couldnt any school say this? Are the young men at Baylor unicorns that as a group choose different paths?

    I realize you disagree with my statement. Could you name a few players that could have played in the majors but chose not to play in the majors?

    If the pro scouts that actually make a living cant evaluate talent who can? Maybe I am wrong but I have always looked at the minors as a filter to screen players for the majors. Many go in, few get through.

    Please tell me a better way to judge talent. At the high school level talent is judged on potential. To get to the bigs, you have to have the talent level to compete.

    The size of the list shows how many players the pro scouts thought might have the skill to play for money.
    I am primarily concerned with how talent translates onto the field for Baylor. College and the pros are two different things. Just because someone makes it to the Major Leagues, does not mean that they were a better college player than someone who didn't. Shawn Tolleson is most likely going to be playing for the Los Angeles Dodgers within the next year. But would you say that Tolleson had a better collegiate baseball career than Kyle Evans, Chad Hawkins, Ryan LaMotta, Abe Woody, Mark McCormick, Josh Scott or countless others I could mention?

    Within the last few years, Coach Smith has:

    Gotten rid of a longtime assistant
    Brought in Trevor Mote
    Brought in Zach Dillon
    Allowed Trevor Mote to work with the ptichers
    Allowed Trevor Mote to call the pitches
    Brought in a team psychologist
    Completely changed the recruiting philosophy
    Increased emphasis on midweek games

    Actions speak louder than words. Regardless of what Smith might say at a Heart of the Order meeting, his actions tell me that he thinks we can do better. Why make all these changes if the program was in the best shape it could've possibly been in? If Smith didn't think we could do better, why not just stick with the status quo? Smith is a smart guy. If he thought everything was as good as it could be, given our disadvantages, then he wouldn't be shaking thing up so much.

    Smith is competetive. He wants to win. He has made changes because he knows we can do better, and he deserves all the credit in the world for this. Some coaches are too stuborn to make changes...especially ones that have experienced success with their previous philosophies. There is no way in hell Smith makes all these changes if he doesn't think we can do better, there would simply be no reason to do so.

    If you ask our players from 2007-2011 if their teams had the talent to have more success than they did, every single one of them will tell you yes.

    Our players think we can do better than we did from 2007-2011.
    Our coaches think we can do better than we did from 2007-2011.
    Many of our fans think we can do better than we did from 2007-2011.

    Although I respect your opinion, I'm going to side with our coaching staff and players on this one. They think we can do better and so do I. This year's team is living proof.

    Oh, and Texas' list of pro players that booray linked is not much more extensive or impressive than ours.
    Last edited by BUPIKE12; 04-12-12 at 06:42 PM.

  18. #18
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    Thanks for the informative post.

    Of course the players think they can do better. As do the coaches. As do the fans. What kind of coach wouldnt tell his players they can achieve?

    As the game changes from year to year, coaches make changes. The most winningest team in the nation sits down, evaluates and makes chnages on a yearly basis.

    If Tolleson is playing for the Dodgers next year than I would say the pro scouts thought/think he is more talented than the others you mentioned. I am not near the judge of baseball talent that they are.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Limited IQ Redneck in PU View Post
    Thanks for the informative post.

    Of course the players think they can do better. As do the coaches. As do the fans. What kind of coach wouldnt tell his players they can achieve?

    As the game changes from year to year, coaches make changes. The most winningest team in the nation sits down, evaluates and makes chnages on a yearly basis.

    If Tolleson is playing for the Dodgers next year than I would say the pro scouts thought/think he is more talented than the others you mentioned. I am not near the judge of baseball talent that they are.
    At my tailgate at the Alamo Bowl, I talked to a player who played under Kevin Steele and he said those teams didn't have the talent to do much better than we did and that they were completely outclassed in terms of talent. I don't hear that from our baseball players. Listen to Smoak's interview with Trent Blank. The kid was sold on Omaha. Smith told him he would have a chance to get to Omaha if he came to Baylor. I think Smith told him this because he believes it. And in case you're thinking about responding with something like "every coach in the country sells the idea of Omaha to their recruits"...that is not true. There are many coaches that are not selling Omaha to their recruits. Players from Kansas don't go there because they expect to go to Omaha...if you tell them they'll be playing in Omaha they assume they have a midweek game against Creighton.

    As far as coaches go, yes even the most winningest coaches make changes from year to year...but I don't see coaches that make MAJOR changes unless they think the program can do better. Coach Smith has made MAJOR changes. Mack Brown fired his longtime assistant and good friend Greg Davis a year removed from a national championship appearance because he thought another coach could do a better job than Davis...no way he makes that type of change if he thought Davis' replacement would only be a marginal improvement over Davis. You don't make major changes for marginal improvement, you make major changes for substantial improvement.

    I am not near the judge of baseball talent as the scouts are either. I am not an expert nor have I ever claimed to be. My point about Tolleson was simply to show that unlike college football and college basketball, you can't always look at how many players a program puts in the pros to determine how much talent the program has had. By talent, I am talking about tangible on the field results at the college level, because that is what this debate is all about. There are teams that have won the CWS that didn't have a single player reach the major leagues. The player that reached the majors from our most recent CWS team was fourth in batting average on a team that really wasn't all that great of a hitting team.
    Last edited by BUPIKE12; 04-12-12 at 08:05 PM.

  20. #20
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    Good discussion, guys. I appreciate each perspective -- not to mention the civility, which is fairly rare in these parts these days.



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