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  1. #161
    You're still wrong.

    The money may be guaranteed in the first contract, but that might represent a minority amount of a longer term value.

    If a guy isn't ready for the league and he becomes a project to some team, then he's in no position to lobby for a great contract the second time around. Then he ends up getting less attention, fewer minutes, and less marketability. This is how careers end quickly. He might get that guaranteed money in the short run, but if he can't negotiate when that contract ends, well... He's screwed.

    You're only looking at it from the standpoint of one contract round. The hard part of having discussions like this with you is that however intelligent you claim to be, it's immediately apparent that you're very lazy.

    Most of the time your arguments depend on whatever heuristic of the day you've concocted based on very limited evidence.

    That's why it's easy to pick your comments apart.

    We both agree that Miller should have probably waited. But that wasn't the entire focus here, you were suggesting that because four players draft stock slipped, they should have gone pro. It's not entirely about Miller. To suggest that players should go pro is an individual decision and it's based on a lot of factors. There is no simple rule. It's risky, and the downside risk to getting it wrong, is enormous.

    For whatever words you're going to try and suggest I've put in your mouth, you've never said that.

  2. #162
    And you've certainly had strong words for people that criticize the Clifton's.

    For the record, I'm not sure I think college basketball is as relevant as people think. Which is why no one is an 'idiot' or should be called out for saying a player should stay or go. College basketball is just college basketball. It educates and entertains. Assuming more is absurd. At the same time, the draft is just a relative ranking system of team rights, not necessarily value. People try to read things into it that it isn't.....

    I'm immediately skeptical that Chad Ford's ESPN mock draft has no European players in the Top10. Maybe, but I doubt that.
    No one wants to admit it, but Europe is doing a better job of developing talent than our U.S. college system. The league execs are constantly worried that the NBA will continue to be relevant to the rest of the world. Right now it clearly is, but that's not guaranteed. But back to 'mock drafts', they don't list the players that are left out. That's a big risk.

    And again, for all that's been discussed, no one wants to talk about players that got passed over in the draft.

    The Clifton's are going to make money off the Baylor program and vice versa. And as long as the player wins, that's fine. But if they don't, and the player gets screwed and ends up with nothing to fall back on, it's the Clifton's that shoulder at least some of the responsibility.

    whether they're just players in the game or not is beside the point.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by FishThtSvdWaco View Post
    I'm immediately skeptical that Chad Ford's ESPN mock draft has no European players in the Top10. Maybe, but I doubt that.
    No one wants to admit it, but Europe is doing a better job of developing talent than our U.S. college system. The league execs are constantly worried that the NBA will continue to be relevant to the rest of the world. Right now it clearly is, but that's not guaranteed. But back to 'mock drafts', they don't list the players that are left out. That's a big risk.
    Ill let you and hambone settle your obvious hatred for him, but as for this, just about every analyst has gone on record saying this is the weakest european class in years. fran is one of the gurus, and he says the talent pool is extremely low this year.

    Very few possibilities. Bad year.RT @stoneking24: @franfraschilla will there be a single European player taken in the first round this year?


    If you are going to go on 12 paragraph rants talking about people being lazy and their arguments being easily picked apart, you should probably do just a slight bit of homework before talking out of your ***.

  4. #164
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    Fran Fraschilla is a broadcaster for college basketball. It would not be in his best interest to talk up European players. I just don't see how there won't be any Euros. They knew there were going to be a few last year then the draft exploded with Euros. I almost expect half of the NBA teams to take a Euro in the draft. Low risk, high return investment in the second round.
    Last edited by xiledinok; 05-05-12 at 11:34 AM.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by xiledinok View Post
    Fran Fraschilla is a broadcaster for college basketball. It would not be in his best interest to talk up European players..

    Are you just making things up?

    He served as head men's basketball coach at Manhattan College, St. John's University and University of New Mexico, before joining ESPN as broadcast analyst. He currently serves as a game analyst, mostly on Big 12 action, and as a studio analyst for ESPN college basketball programming. He also covers the NBA Draft, focusing mostly on foreign players


    It is part of his job to cover the foreign players for ESPN.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by xiledinok View Post
    They knew there were going to be a few last year then the draft exploded with Euros. I almost expect half of the NBA teams to take a Euro in the draft. Low risk, high return investment in the second round.
    Here is a mock draft with 9 international players in it.

    http://www.nbadraft.net/2011mock_draft

    Here is one with 11.

    http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2011/



    12 international players were drafted.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Are you just making things up?

    He served as head men's basketball coach at Manhattan College, St. John's University and University of New Mexico, before joining ESPN as broadcast analyst. He currently serves as a game analyst, mostly on Big 12 action, and as a studio analyst for ESPN college basketball programming. He also covers the NBA Draft, focusing mostly on foreign players


    It is part of his job to cover the foreign players for ESPN.
    When was the last time he held a head coaching job? He made his name at Manhattan and didn't do much at New Mexico or St. John's.
    I'd take Fish's post as being accurate. His sources are pretty good at basketball management.
    Flash, the mockdrafts didn't have an idea as many Euros would be drafted several months before the draft. There's an unknown with all of the foreign players early in the draft process.

    Anyone know where Ant Jones is going?
    Last edited by xiledinok; 05-07-12 at 11:38 AM.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by FishThtSvdWaco View Post
    You're still wrong.

    The money may be guaranteed in the first contract, but that might represent a minority amount of a longer term value.

    If a guy isn't ready for the league and he becomes a project to some team, then he's in no position to lobby for a great contract the second time around. Then he ends up getting less attention, fewer minutes, and less marketability. This is how careers end quickly. He might get that guaranteed money in the short run, but if he can't negotiate when that contract ends, well... He's screwed.

    You're only looking at it from the standpoint of one contract round. The hard part of having discussions like this with you is that however intelligent you claim to be, it's immediately apparent that you're very lazy.
    One fallacy in your argument is that the second round of contract negotiations is not guaranteed whether they leave now, later or never. If a player waits a year, the first round of contract negotiations is not guaranteed either. If a player is projected to be in the lottery this year, the NPV of what is actually in the contract resulting from this draft is all that is guaranteed. Everything else comes with a risk and must be evaluated on a risk-reward basis that is right for the individual. I don't know if the decision that QMillerTime made was the best one or not, but I'm sure as heck glad that he chose to be a Bear when it came time to go to college.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by xiledinok View Post
    When was the last time he held a head coaching job? He made his name at Manhattan and didn't do much at New Mexico or St. John's.
    I'd take Fish's post as being accurate. His sources are pretty good at basketball management.

    So the guys who ESPN pay to cover the draft, specifically the one they pay to cover the euro scene, are not as in-the-know as fish's basketball management sources?

    So how many euros you guys expecting to go in the top 10? (thats what he said he was skeptical about. and in his defense, he added that "he could be wrong")

    My only point was that multiple people have forecasted this to be one of the weakest euro classes in some time.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    So the guys who ESPN pay to cover the draft, specifically the one they pay to cover the euro scene, are not as in-the-know as fish's basketball management sources?

    So how many euros you guys expecting to go in the top 10? (thats what he said he was skeptical about. and in his defense, he added that "he could be wrong")
    Ask Fish about the number of Euros. There's going to be a few, you just cannot discount the trend.
    Oh yes, ESPN pays Skip Bayless too. I like Fran but he's not in compared to fish's sources.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by xiledinok View Post
    Ask Fish about the number of Euros. There's going to be a few, you just cannot discount the trend.
    Oh yes, ESPN pays Skip Bayless too. I like Fran but he's not in compared to fish's sources.
    ESPN pays Skip for a specific reason: to ruffle feathers/get viewers. They pay Ford/Fraschilla to actually cover sports. My only point was that he was skeptical because Ford's mock had none, and that most analysts arent projecting many euros to go first round this year.

    Every mock draft had multiple euros in the top 10 and throughout the draft last year. None have them in the top 10 this year.
    Last edited by flash; 05-07-12 at 12:04 PM.

  12. #172
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    Skip needs his own feathers ruffled again. He cannot even lie about him being a scrub (like most people including myself) at balling. He's lied about his past and has gone after guys like Troy Aikman, Russell Westbrook (Russ might not be an ideal point guard but he's pretty damn good) and others like Terrell Owens.

    I think the Euros will go in the second round. I think there is less risk involved.

    For Miller's sake, he doesn't need any more competition in this draft.
    Last edited by xiledinok; 05-07-12 at 12:11 PM.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by xiledinok View Post
    Skip needs his own feathers ruffled again. He cannot even lie about him being a scrub (like most people including myself) at balling. He's lied about his past and has gone after guys like Troy Aikman, Russell Westbrook (Russ might not be an ideal point guard but he's pretty damn good) and others like Terrell Owens.

    I think the Euros will go in the second round. I think there is less risk involved.

    Then you disagree with fish, because his skepticism was based on "Ford not having any international players in the top 10", and his entire point in posting that was in the conversation about Quincy Miller, who at the very worst will go in the bottom end of the 1st.

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Then you disagree with fish, because his skepticism was based on "Ford not having any international players in the top 10", and his entire point in posting that was in the conversation about Quincy Miller, who at the very worst will go in the bottom end of the 1st.
    I think there will be a Euro going in the first round. Too many good ones to overlook. Most will go in the second round.
    Miller is a favorite to go in the first round on this board and many mock drafts. My guess is he will go 24-42 in the draft.



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