Why Are We in Ukraine?

174,613 Views | 3974 Replies | Last: 2 hrs ago by Sam Lowry
whiterock
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Bear8084 said:

"Sudden collapse". More of Sam's vatnik lies.

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-april-22-2024

"Russian forces appear to be aiming to make a wide penetration of Ukrainian lines northwest of Avdiivka, Donetsk Oblast, but their ability to do so will likely be blunted by the arrival of US and other Western aid to the frontline."

"Russian forces are similarly intensifying the rate of tactical-level gains elsewhere in the theater, namely in the Lyman direction and west and southwest of Donetsk City, to consolidate gains as rapidly as possible. The Russian military command is likely aware of the closing window before more Western aid arrives and is trying to secure offensive gains before the window closes. Russian forces are likely to continue to make tactical gains along the Berdychi-Novokalynove line and elsewhere in theater in the coming weeks as they intensify offensive operations in anticipation of the arrival of Western aid. However, the currently closing window of low Ukrainian resources will likely inhibit Russian forces from being able to translate tactical advances into operationally significant gains for the most part, though some are possible; and Ukraine's receipt of Western aid will likely position Ukrainian forces to receive the upcoming offensives for which Russian forces are preparing.[17]"
Exactly. It's hard to stop an advance when one has no ammunition. Russia knows this and is pushing as hard as it can before Ukraine stocks up again.

What has not been commented up on is how those Russian advances make them more vulnerable to counter-attacks. They are several klicks beyond their heavily fortified defensive positions, therefore more vulnerable to encirclement in terrain highly conducive to maneuver warfare.
Sam Lowry
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whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Realitybites said:

Roads are a legitimate function of government. In general, the maintenance of domestic public infrastructure is. Water supply, sewage, etc also are.

Running up 35 trillion in debt heading on its way to 50 trillion within a decade as the standard of living of citizens is continually degraded and then shipping another 60 billion to country halfway around the world that's involved in an unnecessary war is not.

It is your *opinion* that degrading the Russian military is necessary. You have consistently failed to make a case that the modern Russian state poses any military threat to the west. The majority of the country disagrees with you.

Whiterock is part of - or at least a defender of - that government-american class who can go to the CIA, go on an overseas posting for 5 years, and retire at 40 with a full pension while the majority of Americans have no access to a pension period. He is as big a part of the problem we face as Biden, BLM, and woke academics.
Russia has pointedly not joined the modern age and continues to send its armies across borders with its neighbors, with a stated intent of reconstituting the footprint of the former USSR
Just a reminder that this is still a lie, no matter how many times it's repeated.
Somehow, you've managed to completely miss recent developments of the last decade, which have seen Russia send its armies across internationally recognized borders several times.

Put down the Pravda and watch this succinct rebuttal of the Russian propaganda you've ingested:


I was referring to the "stated intent of reconstituting the footprint of the former USSR." You've never been able to show where they stated this.

I'm not sure what the video is supposed to prove, but the foreign minister's performance is certainly a tour-de-force. I haven't seen that many lies and half-truths in one speech since Blinken's last press briefing.
whiterock
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The_barBEARian said:

whiterock said:

Realitybites said:

whiterock said:

Harrumph rarely leads to coherent thinking.


"It is well that war is so terrible. Otherwise, we would fall in love with it."
-Robert E. Lee









The Russians have never studied Robert. E. Lee, apparently. Perhaps that's why they cannot stop invading their neighbors.



Could say the same about America.
except for the invading their neighbors part......
Mothra
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Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

The_barBEARian said:

ATL Bear said:

Doc Holliday said:

Redbrickbear said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

You can have your wars%85but this BS has got to stop:


add this to the stories of four-digit hammers and five-digit toilet seats...... %A0It's what happens when you place cost controls on the big-ticket parts of the program. %A0It causes allocation of expenses into the margins. %A0 %A0

If this was a case of garden-variety bilking, we would not be seeing steady trends of consolidation in our defense industrial base.


If global hegemony domination means we turn into a quasi socialist country made of wage slaves forking over financial freedom%85then what is the point of global hegemony?


Great point
Thanks

I kind of see it like selling our soul. We're willing to drop trillions on Ukraine and any other war/s in order to supposedly dominate Russia or other countries that pose a threat to western dominance and in process of doing so we print trillions further devaluing the dollar by creating insane inflation.

We "succeed" in war efforts at the cost of destroying our middle class, in effect it's like we're becoming that which we're fighting against.
You guys are distracted. In 2022 we spent $4.5 Trillion on medical services of which 90% was paid for by private insurance (highly subsidized/regulated industry) or the preponderance by Medicare and Medicaid. %A0A number that rises at a 4-8% clip annually regardless of inflation. %A0Check it out. How much of your income goes toward Ukraine versus the healthcare costs of others from your private insurance to your Medicare tax to your income tax that gets allocated to Medicaid? %A0If there's a "MIC" you're a wage slave to it's the Medical/Healthcare Industrial Complex. %A0

That is if we want to have an honest conversation about fiscal concerns. %A0


While I agree in principle, at least Medicare has a direct benefit on actual Americans.

Foreign aid has a negligible benefit to Americans and is the most obvious and insulting waste of tax dollars.

Especially in the case of Ukraine, where supporting them turns a Christian Orthodox Russia into an unnecessary enemy.

Putin already said multiple times he is ready to take a peace deal. Was Hitler offering peace deals after he annexed Austria?

It is you psychopaths who support Biden who are perpetrating this war but ofc you are too cowardly and pathetic to actually go fight it yourselves.
There you go again thinking Russia is this bastion of Christian ideals and defender of Christianity. %A0Absolutely insane. %A0
The GOP is no bastion of Christian ideals, but it is often a defender of Christianity. Two things can be true at once.
Considering any political entity a defender of Christianity in any form is as misguided as it is idiotic. %A0
If so then it's equally misguided to criticize any political entity for not being a defender of Christianity.
If so, then it is lobial absentia to believe Russian Orthodoxy is a victim and at stake here. %A0The poor poor persecuted Russian Orthodox Christians, following their despot in the fight against the anti-Christian world around them. %A0
They are certainly being persecuted in Ukraine, but there's no point in arguing about that. The next time you recognize an obvious fact will be the first.
You'd think on a Baylor message board there'd be the slightest bit of sympathy for the Baptist's in Eastern Ukraine getting tortured and demanded to pledge loyalty to the Russian Orthodox Church under the guidance of priests. %A0Or the outlawing and restrictions on evangelism in Russia proper, or the outlawing of denominations like Jehovah's Witness under terrorism laws. %A0But then you provided a crusade era quote in defending Patriarch Kirill. %A0I knew you guys held Putin and Russia above the U.S., I just never expected you to hold them above our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. %A0Welcome to the shame of Christian nationalism. %A0
I don't lack sympathy for Baptists under Russian law, nor am I saying we should follow the example of the Crusades. I'm just pointing out the irony of your comparing Patriarch Kirill to an Islamic jihadist when Christians have long justified anti-Muslim crusades in the same manner. And of course Protestants and Catholics have committed many crimes against each other over the centuries, with Protestants being the worse by far. None of this is new. Just get a little sense of history before making such absurd statements, that's all.
Absurd? It's because I know the history that I point out what Putin with his Patriarch lackey Kirill are doing. They've even added a greater Rus prayer to the liturgy. Your boy's so enthralled with his history he's apparently thinking they're building the third Rome with the techniques from the Middle Ages. The West put away the holy war approach a long time ago, unlike the Islamists. Kirill is bringing it back under Russo-nationalism. Your crusade era quote appears to try and justify it.

I know Putin is using the church to manipulate and control Russia, I'm just shocked at how many of you seem to sympathize with the effort.
The laws you're talking about are part of Russia's anti-terrorism legislation. Obviously they've taken a different approach and chosen to limit free speech in order not to give free rein to Islamist ideology and other foreign influences. Time will tell the results, but calling it a holy war is indeed absurd.

It would be arrogant to presume that the "modern" way is the only way of doing things. The American experiment is just that, an experiment. It is not the measure of all things. Our system of laws is the product of many centuries of social and economic development. If we really want to nurture liberal democracy in Russia, we should stop trying to bully and exploit them and allow progress to occur.
It's remarkable to me how much you downplay Russian crackdowns on freedoms and Russian aggression when everyone knows based on your long posting history that if it were the US engaged in such conduct, you'd be one of the leading critics.

What happened to you that turned you against your country to the point you're nothing more than a Russian shill at this point? Serious question.
whiterock
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Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Realitybites said:

Roads are a legitimate function of government. In general, the maintenance of domestic public infrastructure is. Water supply, sewage, etc also are.

Running up 35 trillion in debt heading on its way to 50 trillion within a decade as the standard of living of citizens is continually degraded and then shipping another 60 billion to country halfway around the world that's involved in an unnecessary war is not.

It is your *opinion* that degrading the Russian military is necessary. You have consistently failed to make a case that the modern Russian state poses any military threat to the west. The majority of the country disagrees with you.

Whiterock is part of - or at least a defender of - that government-american class who can go to the CIA, go on an overseas posting for 5 years, and retire at 40 with a full pension while the majority of Americans have no access to a pension period. He is as big a part of the problem we face as Biden, BLM, and woke academics.
Russia has pointedly not joined the modern age and continues to send its armies across borders with its neighbors, with a stated intent of reconstituting the footprint of the former USSR
Just a reminder that this is still a lie, no matter how many times it's repeated.
Somehow, you've managed to completely miss recent developments of the last decade, which have seen Russia send its armies across internationally recognized borders several times.

Put down the Pravda and watch this succinct rebuttal of the Russian propaganda you've ingested:


I was referring to the "stated intent of reconstituting the footprint of the former USSR." You've never been able to show where they stated this.

I'm not sure what the video is supposed to prove, but the foreign minister's performance is certainly a tour-de-force. I haven't seen that many lies and half-truths in one speech since Blinken's last press briefing.
The soviets were also very skilled in studious obtusity. I mean, if one never listens or reads any of Putin's speeches, one could very well think the man never speaks at all about anything.
Mothra
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ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

The_barBEARian said:

ATL Bear said:

Doc Holliday said:

Redbrickbear said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

You can have your wars…but this BS has got to stop:


add this to the stories of four-digit hammers and five-digit toilet seats...... It's what happens when you place cost controls on the big-ticket parts of the program. It causes allocation of expenses into the margins.

If this was a case of garden-variety bilking, we would not be seeing steady trends of consolidation in our defense industrial base.


If global hegemony domination means we turn into a quasi socialist country made of wage slaves forking over financial freedom…then what is the point of global hegemony?


Great point
Thanks

I kind of see it like selling our soul. We're willing to drop trillions on Ukraine and any other war/s in order to supposedly dominate Russia or other countries that pose a threat to western dominance and in process of doing so we print trillions further devaluing the dollar by creating insane inflation.

We "succeed" in war efforts at the cost of destroying our middle class, in effect it's like we're becoming that which we're fighting against.
You guys are distracted. In 2022 we spent $4.5 Trillion on medical services of which 90% was paid for by private insurance (highly subsidized/regulated industry) or the preponderance by Medicare and Medicaid. A number that rises at a 4-8% clip annually regardless of inflation. Check it out. How much of your income goes toward Ukraine versus the healthcare costs of others from your private insurance to your Medicare tax to your income tax that gets allocated to Medicaid? If there's a "MIC" you're a wage slave to it's the Medical/Healthcare Industrial Complex.

That is if we want to have an honest conversation about fiscal concerns.


While I agree in principle, at least Medicare has a direct benefit on actual Americans.

Foreign aid has a negligible benefit to Americans and is the most obvious and insulting waste of tax dollars.

Especially in the case of Ukraine, where supporting them turns a Christian Orthodox Russia into an unnecessary enemy.

Putin already said multiple times he is ready to take a peace deal. Was Hitler offering peace deals after he annexed Austria?

It is you psychopaths who support Biden who are perpetrating this war but ofc you are too cowardly and pathetic to actually go fight it yourselves.
There you go again thinking Russia is this bastion of Christian ideals and defender of Christianity. Absolutely insane.
The GOP is no bastion of Christian ideals, but it is often a defender of Christianity. Two things can be true at once.
Considering any political entity a defender of Christianity in any form is as misguided as it is idiotic.
If so then it's equally misguided to criticize any political entity for not being a defender of Christianity.
If so, then it is lobial absentia to believe Russian Orthodoxy is a victim and at stake here. The poor poor persecuted Russian Orthodox Christians, following their despot in the fight against the anti-Christian world around them.
They are certainly being persecuted in Ukraine, but there's no point in arguing about that. The next time you recognize an obvious fact will be the first.
You'd think on a Baylor message board there'd be the slightest bit of sympathy for the Baptist's in Eastern Ukraine getting tortured and demanded to pledge loyalty to the Russian Orthodox Church



Why?

You guys never spoke up for or cared about the Middle Eastern Christians who got wiped out by 20 years of endless interventions in the that part of the world.

I have never heard you say a negative word about Bush and his wars of choice that did this…

Iraq Christians in 2001: 1.5 million

Iraq Christians in 2020: 150,000

Total destruction of their community by the lords of the universe in DC

[In 2022, Christian leaders report that the number of Christians has dropped from a pre-2003 estimate of fewer than 1.5 million to 150,000.]


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Iraq


You don't care about Iraqi Christians, it's just another data point you can use to take a pot shot.

.


And of course you and the interventionists are the ones who really care right?

Invading and bombing their country (and unleashing Islamist terrorism) is NOT showing that you care about these Iraq Christians.

Your approach in Eastern Europe is likely to be the same story of blood and misery for the Christians there….
I was responding to a poster and others who are elevating Russia as some bastion of a Christian nation so far as arguing Just War, and defending the manipulation of the church.
Honestly, it is incredible to me the transformation that has taken place among American conservatives. The pendulum has swung so far from the neo-conservative position that we have conservatives who now espouse a traditional leftist ideology, where America is the great enemy of peace in the world. I wonder how much the conservatives on this thread realize they sound like good little leftist Noam Chomsky adherents.
Bear8084
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Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Realitybites said:

Roads are a legitimate function of government. In general, the maintenance of domestic public infrastructure is. Water supply, sewage, etc also are.

Running up 35 trillion in debt heading on its way to 50 trillion within a decade as the standard of living of citizens is continually degraded and then shipping another 60 billion to country halfway around the world that's involved in an unnecessary war is not.

It is your *opinion* that degrading the Russian military is necessary. You have consistently failed to make a case that the modern Russian state poses any military threat to the west. The majority of the country disagrees with you.

Whiterock is part of - or at least a defender of - that government-american class who can go to the CIA, go on an overseas posting for 5 years, and retire at 40 with a full pension while the majority of Americans have no access to a pension period. He is as big a part of the problem we face as Biden, BLM, and woke academics.
Russia has pointedly not joined the modern age and continues to send its armies across borders with its neighbors, with a stated intent of reconstituting the footprint of the former USSR
Just a reminder that this is still a lie, no matter how many times it's repeated.
Somehow, you've managed to completely miss recent developments of the last decade, which have seen Russia send its armies across internationally recognized borders several times.

Put down the Pravda and watch this succinct rebuttal of the Russian propaganda you've ingested:


I was referring to the "stated intent of reconstituting the footprint of the former USSR." You've never been able to show where they stated this.

I'm not sure what the video is supposed to prove, but the foreign minister's performance is certainly a tour-de-force. I haven't seen that many lies and half-truths in one speech since Blinken's last press briefing.


The only lies and half-truths are whatever Russian propaganda you decide to crap out on any given day, shill.
Redbrickbear
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Interesting....


[If you read nothing else today, make it this Malcom Kyeyune essay in UnHerd about why Western populations are not interested in fighting to defend the Global American Empire. He notes the daunting statistics about failure to recruit for militaries, and stated unwillingness of peoples especially young peoples in Western nations to go to war. Excerpts:

Quote:

How did this state of affairs come to pass? Most "analysis" starts and ends with a bit of hand-wringing about the moral decay of the youth. But this doesn't explain much. There were countless complaints about the sad state of young people in the late 19th century but that didn't translate into a society-wide lack of patriotism and disinterest in defending one's country.
More useful, perhaps, is the model supplied by British historian Arnold Toynbee, whose life's work mapped the lifecycle of human empires. In particular, one concept is of interest here: the idea of the internal proletariat, a group of people who tend to grow in number as empires begin to stagnate and decline.

It's not a Marxist term, but one coined by the historian Arnold Toynbee to denote, says Kyeyune, "a group of citizens who live inside an empire, but for various structural reasons no longer benefit from it and so are unlikely to rush to its defence."
Look, he goes on, at how justifiably angry the US Right was over the recent Ukraine-Israel aid bill. More:
Quote:

Many, let's not forget, believe America is heading for bankruptcy. The deficit is massive, the national debt is exploding, and underneath it all lies the underreported but truly eye-watering figure of $175 billion, which is what the US Treasury projects it will need to actually fund its social safety net. And what is America's political class doing in the face of this looming fiscal disaster? They are quite literally borrowing money to send to Ukraine and Israel instead a move that, in the corporate world, would be considered asset stripping. Ordinary American voters are no doubt starting to feel what the put-upon Romans did: the empire is no longer working for them.

Nobody really believes in the old cant about "freedom" and "democracy," and that we have to make such sacrifices because if not, why, we're nothing but a pack of Neville Chamberlains. After Iraq and Afghanistan, who can believe this anymore? What's more, with life in the US in decline on many fronts, it is harder for more Americans to understand why we should impoverish ourselves to serve Washington's imperial strategies.
Kyeyune:
Quote:

What makes this situation so intractable today is that our political elites have more or less made themselves immune to the negative consequences of their own policies. They neither apologise for mistakes nor accept responsibility for them. To take just one example: the war against Ukraine was supposed to be won quickly, and those who warned about the negative economic consequences of introducing sanctions were ridiculed and marginalised. More than two years later, those measures are wreaking havoc on ordinary people, and yet there is seemingly no contrition whatsoever from those who got it wrong just more calls for the plebians to sacrifice more.

Who on Wall Street or anywhere else was punished for the 2008 economic crash? Who in the military saw their careers ended or damaged by the Iraq and Afghanistan disasters? If you seek one source of the American people's disinterest in supporting the GAE, read the big "Afghanistan Papers" series the Washington Post did a few years back, based on internal Pentagon documents. The documents revealed that the US was spending unfathomable sums to affect an outcome that few people in the military believed was possible. Nobody stood up to say it was wrong. Accountability? What's that? This is a problem that continued across both Republican and Democratic administrations. It seems that Karl Rove's infamous dictum from 2004 "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality" was internalized by the Ruling Class in Washington. More Kyeyune:
Quote:

Thus, we find ourselves in a situation that has much in the way of historical precedent: an insulated, out-of-touch ruling class protected from the ill effects of its own policies, and a general population that is sullenly withdrawing from public service and both mentally and physically "checking out". Because it's happened so often before, what happens next is not a great mystery: at some point, yet another crisis will roll along, one that the elites will simply not be able to manage without the active support of the people they rule over, only to find that said support doesn't arrive.

Think about the state of the United States today. The southern border is wide open, and has been for a while. Nobody in Washington cares enough to do anything about it. Yesterday at this conference in Slovakia, I spoke to a Latin American journalist who had been to the Darien Gap to write about migration. He told me that he interviewed Latino migrants who told him they saw plenty of military-age Russian men in the masses moving north. That thousands of military-age Chinese men have been doing this for a while has been documented.
Washington does not care. Similarly in Europe, the migration route out of Africa has been open for a long time, and the influx of illegal migrants is changing the continent. Nobody likes it, and in fact it is destroying life across Europe (Kyeyune's Sweden, which is now the gang-war capital of Europe, is the most pointed example.) But the leadership class does nothing except to seek to punish countries like Hungary, which want no part in this civilizational suicide.

Look to the clownshow America's elites have made of our own country in terms of social norms and policies. I believe that NYU business professor Scott Galloway was onto something important when he identified a major source of the protest rage as being Israel's "whiteness". Watch the clip he doesn't say it's the only reason, but he does say that the professoriat, of which he is a member, has for a long time educated students to believe that the white race and all its ways is the source of all the world's evil. We therefore should not be surprised when young people, having coded Israel as "white," embrace anti-Semitism and valorize bloodthirsty terrorists like Hamas...]

Sam Lowry
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ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

The_barBEARian said:

ATL Bear said:

Doc Holliday said:

Redbrickbear said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

You can have your wars%85but this BS has got to stop:


add this to the stories of four-digit hammers and five-digit toilet seats...... %A0It's what happens when you place cost controls on the big-ticket parts of the program. %A0It causes allocation of expenses into the margins. %A0 %A0

If this was a case of garden-variety bilking, we would not be seeing steady trends of consolidation in our defense industrial base.


If global hegemony domination means we turn into a quasi socialist country made of wage slaves forking over financial freedom%85then what is the point of global hegemony?


Great point
Thanks

I kind of see it like selling our soul. We're willing to drop trillions on Ukraine and any other war/s in order to supposedly dominate Russia or other countries that pose a threat to western dominance and in process of doing so we print trillions further devaluing the dollar by creating insane inflation.

We "succeed" in war efforts at the cost of destroying our middle class, in effect it's like we're becoming that which we're fighting against.
You guys are distracted. In 2022 we spent $4.5 Trillion on medical services of which 90% was paid for by private insurance (highly subsidized/regulated industry) or the preponderance by Medicare and Medicaid. %A0A number that rises at a 4-8% clip annually regardless of inflation. %A0Check it out. How much of your income goes toward Ukraine versus the healthcare costs of others from your private insurance to your Medicare tax to your income tax that gets allocated to Medicaid? %A0If there's a "MIC" you're a wage slave to it's the Medical/Healthcare Industrial Complex. %A0

That is if we want to have an honest conversation about fiscal concerns. %A0


While I agree in principle, at least Medicare has a direct benefit on actual Americans.

Foreign aid has a negligible benefit to Americans and is the most obvious and insulting waste of tax dollars.

Especially in the case of Ukraine, where supporting them turns a Christian Orthodox Russia into an unnecessary enemy.

Putin already said multiple times he is ready to take a peace deal. Was Hitler offering peace deals after he annexed Austria?

It is you psychopaths who support Biden who are perpetrating this war but ofc you are too cowardly and pathetic to actually go fight it yourselves.
There you go again thinking Russia is this bastion of Christian ideals and defender of Christianity. %A0Absolutely insane. %A0
The GOP is no bastion of Christian ideals, but it is often a defender of Christianity. Two things can be true at once.
Considering any political entity a defender of Christianity in any form is as misguided as it is idiotic. %A0
If so then it's equally misguided to criticize any political entity for not being a defender of Christianity.
If so, then it is lobial absentia to believe Russian Orthodoxy is a victim and at stake here. %A0The poor poor persecuted Russian Orthodox Christians, following their despot in the fight against the anti-Christian world around them. %A0
They are certainly being persecuted in Ukraine, but there's no point in arguing about that. The next time you recognize an obvious fact will be the first.
You'd think on a Baylor message board there'd be the slightest bit of sympathy for the Baptist's in Eastern Ukraine getting tortured and demanded to pledge loyalty to the Russian Orthodox Church under the guidance of priests. %A0Or the outlawing and restrictions on evangelism in Russia proper, or the outlawing of denominations like Jehovah's Witness under terrorism laws. %A0But then you provided a crusade era quote in defending Patriarch Kirill. %A0I knew you guys held Putin and Russia above the U.S., I just never expected you to hold them above our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. %A0Welcome to the shame of Christian nationalism. %A0
I don't lack sympathy for Baptists under Russian law, nor am I saying we should follow the example of the Crusades. I'm just pointing out the irony of your comparing Patriarch Kirill to an Islamic jihadist when Christians have long justified anti-Muslim crusades in the same manner. And of course Protestants and Catholics have committed many crimes against each other over the centuries, with Protestants being the worse by far. None of this is new. Just get a little sense of history before making such absurd statements, that's all.
Absurd? It's because I know the history that I point out what Putin with his Patriarch lackey Kirill are doing. They've even added a greater Rus prayer to the liturgy. Your boy's so enthralled with his history he's apparently thinking they're building the third Rome with the techniques from the Middle Ages. The West put away the holy war approach a long time ago, unlike the Islamists. Kirill is bringing it back under Russo-nationalism. Your crusade era quote appears to try and justify it.

I know Putin is using the church to manipulate and control Russia, I'm just shocked at how many of you seem to sympathize with the effort.
The laws you're talking about are part of Russia's anti-terrorism legislation. Obviously they've taken a different approach and chosen to limit free speech in order not to give free rein to Islamist ideology and other foreign influences. Time will tell the results, but calling it a holy war is indeed absurd.

It would be arrogant to presume that the "modern" way is the only way of doing things. The American experiment is just that, an experiment. It is not the measure of all things. Our system of laws is the product of many centuries of social and economic development. If we really want to nurture liberal democracy in Russia, we should stop trying to bully and exploit them and allow progress to occur.
Sam, you can twist it however you want, but you know what's going on here. It's just hard to admit it given how you've dug in for the Russians. Coercing the populace toward the preferred religious structure, and using that platform as a pillar of power is as old as religion and as modern as today.
Of course it's as old as time. So what's your point? Why single out Russia when Ukraine does as bad or worse?
Because your last sentence is patently false,
No, but let's say it is false. Why single them out in any case? Are they worse than Saudi Arabia? For that matter are they worse than Europe? The Brits will arrest you these days if you stand in front of an abortion clinic with a less than exuberant look on your face.
Sam Lowry
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whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Realitybites said:

Roads are a legitimate function of government. In general, the maintenance of domestic public infrastructure is. Water supply, sewage, etc also are.

Running up 35 trillion in debt heading on its way to 50 trillion within a decade as the standard of living of citizens is continually degraded and then shipping another 60 billion to country halfway around the world that's involved in an unnecessary war is not.

It is your *opinion* that degrading the Russian military is necessary. You have consistently failed to make a case that the modern Russian state poses any military threat to the west. The majority of the country disagrees with you.

Whiterock is part of - or at least a defender of - that government-american class who can go to the CIA, go on an overseas posting for 5 years, and retire at 40 with a full pension while the majority of Americans have no access to a pension period. He is as big a part of the problem we face as Biden, BLM, and woke academics.
Russia has pointedly not joined the modern age and continues to send its armies across borders with its neighbors, with a stated intent of reconstituting the footprint of the former USSR
Just a reminder that this is still a lie, no matter how many times it's repeated.
Somehow, you've managed to completely miss recent developments of the last decade, which have seen Russia send its armies across internationally recognized borders several times.

Put down the Pravda and watch this succinct rebuttal of the Russian propaganda you've ingested:


I was referring to the "stated intent of reconstituting the footprint of the former USSR." You've never been able to show where they stated this.

I'm not sure what the video is supposed to prove, but the foreign minister's performance is certainly a tour-de-force. I haven't seen that many lies and half-truths in one speech since Blinken's last press briefing.
The soviets were also very skilled in studious obtusity. I mean, if one never listens or reads any of Putin's speeches, one could very well think the man never speaks at all about anything.
Nice, creative dodge.
The_barBEARian
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mothra said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

The_barBEARian said:

ATL Bear said:

Doc Holliday said:

Redbrickbear said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

You can have your wars…but this BS has got to stop:


add this to the stories of four-digit hammers and five-digit toilet seats...... It's what happens when you place cost controls on the big-ticket parts of the program. It causes allocation of expenses into the margins.

If this was a case of garden-variety bilking, we would not be seeing steady trends of consolidation in our defense industrial base.


If global hegemony domination means we turn into a quasi socialist country made of wage slaves forking over financial freedom…then what is the point of global hegemony?


Great point
Thanks

I kind of see it like selling our soul. We're willing to drop trillions on Ukraine and any other war/s in order to supposedly dominate Russia or other countries that pose a threat to western dominance and in process of doing so we print trillions further devaluing the dollar by creating insane inflation.

We "succeed" in war efforts at the cost of destroying our middle class, in effect it's like we're becoming that which we're fighting against.
You guys are distracted. In 2022 we spent $4.5 Trillion on medical services of which 90% was paid for by private insurance (highly subsidized/regulated industry) or the preponderance by Medicare and Medicaid. A number that rises at a 4-8% clip annually regardless of inflation. Check it out. How much of your income goes toward Ukraine versus the healthcare costs of others from your private insurance to your Medicare tax to your income tax that gets allocated to Medicaid? If there's a "MIC" you're a wage slave to it's the Medical/Healthcare Industrial Complex.

That is if we want to have an honest conversation about fiscal concerns.


While I agree in principle, at least Medicare has a direct benefit on actual Americans.

Foreign aid has a negligible benefit to Americans and is the most obvious and insulting waste of tax dollars.

Especially in the case of Ukraine, where supporting them turns a Christian Orthodox Russia into an unnecessary enemy.

Putin already said multiple times he is ready to take a peace deal. Was Hitler offering peace deals after he annexed Austria?

It is you psychopaths who support Biden who are perpetrating this war but ofc you are too cowardly and pathetic to actually go fight it yourselves.
There you go again thinking Russia is this bastion of Christian ideals and defender of Christianity. Absolutely insane.
The GOP is no bastion of Christian ideals, but it is often a defender of Christianity. Two things can be true at once.
Considering any political entity a defender of Christianity in any form is as misguided as it is idiotic.
If so then it's equally misguided to criticize any political entity for not being a defender of Christianity.
If so, then it is lobial absentia to believe Russian Orthodoxy is a victim and at stake here. The poor poor persecuted Russian Orthodox Christians, following their despot in the fight against the anti-Christian world around them.
They are certainly being persecuted in Ukraine, but there's no point in arguing about that. The next time you recognize an obvious fact will be the first.
You'd think on a Baylor message board there'd be the slightest bit of sympathy for the Baptist's in Eastern Ukraine getting tortured and demanded to pledge loyalty to the Russian Orthodox Church



Why?

You guys never spoke up for or cared about the Middle Eastern Christians who got wiped out by 20 years of endless interventions in the that part of the world.

I have never heard you say a negative word about Bush and his wars of choice that did this…

Iraq Christians in 2001: 1.5 million

Iraq Christians in 2020: 150,000

Total destruction of their community by the lords of the universe in DC

[In 2022, Christian leaders report that the number of Christians has dropped from a pre-2003 estimate of fewer than 1.5 million to 150,000.]


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Iraq


You don't care about Iraqi Christians, it's just another data point you can use to take a pot shot.

.


And of course you and the interventionists are the ones who really care right?

Invading and bombing their country (and unleashing Islamist terrorism) is NOT showing that you care about these Iraq Christians.

Your approach in Eastern Europe is likely to be the same story of blood and misery for the Christians there….
I was responding to a poster and others who are elevating Russia as some bastion of a Christian nation so far as arguing Just War, and defending the manipulation of the church.
Honestly, it is incredible to me the transformation that has taken place among American conservatives. The pendulum has swung so far from the neo-conservative position that we have conservatives who now espouse a traditional leftist ideology, where America is the great enemy of peace in the world. I wonder how much the conservatives on this thread realize they sound like good little leftist Noam Chomsky adherents.

Its called isolationism and there is nothing leftist about it.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mothra said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

The_barBEARian said:

ATL Bear said:

Doc Holliday said:

Redbrickbear said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

You can have your wars%85but this BS has got to stop:


add this to the stories of four-digit hammers and five-digit toilet seats...... %A0It's what happens when you place cost controls on the big-ticket parts of the program. %A0It causes allocation of expenses into the margins. %A0 %A0

If this was a case of garden-variety bilking, we would not be seeing steady trends of consolidation in our defense industrial base.


If global hegemony domination means we turn into a quasi socialist country made of wage slaves forking over financial freedom%85then what is the point of global hegemony?


Great point
Thanks

I kind of see it like selling our soul. We're willing to drop trillions on Ukraine and any other war/s in order to supposedly dominate Russia or other countries that pose a threat to western dominance and in process of doing so we print trillions further devaluing the dollar by creating insane inflation.

We "succeed" in war efforts at the cost of destroying our middle class, in effect it's like we're becoming that which we're fighting against.
You guys are distracted. In 2022 we spent $4.5 Trillion on medical services of which 90% was paid for by private insurance (highly subsidized/regulated industry) or the preponderance by Medicare and Medicaid. %A0A number that rises at a 4-8% clip annually regardless of inflation. %A0Check it out. How much of your income goes toward Ukraine versus the healthcare costs of others from your private insurance to your Medicare tax to your income tax that gets allocated to Medicaid? %A0If there's a "MIC" you're a wage slave to it's the Medical/Healthcare Industrial Complex. %A0

That is if we want to have an honest conversation about fiscal concerns. %A0


While I agree in principle, at least Medicare has a direct benefit on actual Americans.

Foreign aid has a negligible benefit to Americans and is the most obvious and insulting waste of tax dollars.

Especially in the case of Ukraine, where supporting them turns a Christian Orthodox Russia into an unnecessary enemy.

Putin already said multiple times he is ready to take a peace deal. Was Hitler offering peace deals after he annexed Austria?

It is you psychopaths who support Biden who are perpetrating this war but ofc you are too cowardly and pathetic to actually go fight it yourselves.
There you go again thinking Russia is this bastion of Christian ideals and defender of Christianity. %A0Absolutely insane. %A0
The GOP is no bastion of Christian ideals, but it is often a defender of Christianity. Two things can be true at once.
Considering any political entity a defender of Christianity in any form is as misguided as it is idiotic. %A0
If so then it's equally misguided to criticize any political entity for not being a defender of Christianity.
If so, then it is lobial absentia to believe Russian Orthodoxy is a victim and at stake here. %A0The poor poor persecuted Russian Orthodox Christians, following their despot in the fight against the anti-Christian world around them. %A0
They are certainly being persecuted in Ukraine, but there's no point in arguing about that. The next time you recognize an obvious fact will be the first.
You'd think on a Baylor message board there'd be the slightest bit of sympathy for the Baptist's in Eastern Ukraine getting tortured and demanded to pledge loyalty to the Russian Orthodox Church under the guidance of priests. %A0Or the outlawing and restrictions on evangelism in Russia proper, or the outlawing of denominations like Jehovah's Witness under terrorism laws. %A0But then you provided a crusade era quote in defending Patriarch Kirill. %A0I knew you guys held Putin and Russia above the U.S., I just never expected you to hold them above our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. %A0Welcome to the shame of Christian nationalism. %A0
I don't lack sympathy for Baptists under Russian law, nor am I saying we should follow the example of the Crusades. I'm just pointing out the irony of your comparing Patriarch Kirill to an Islamic jihadist when Christians have long justified anti-Muslim crusades in the same manner. And of course Protestants and Catholics have committed many crimes against each other over the centuries, with Protestants being the worse by far. None of this is new. Just get a little sense of history before making such absurd statements, that's all.
Absurd? It's because I know the history that I point out what Putin with his Patriarch lackey Kirill are doing. They've even added a greater Rus prayer to the liturgy. Your boy's so enthralled with his history he's apparently thinking they're building the third Rome with the techniques from the Middle Ages. The West put away the holy war approach a long time ago, unlike the Islamists. Kirill is bringing it back under Russo-nationalism. Your crusade era quote appears to try and justify it.

I know Putin is using the church to manipulate and control Russia, I'm just shocked at how many of you seem to sympathize with the effort.
The laws you're talking about are part of Russia's anti-terrorism legislation. Obviously they've taken a different approach and chosen to limit free speech in order not to give free rein to Islamist ideology and other foreign influences. Time will tell the results, but calling it a holy war is indeed absurd.

It would be arrogant to presume that the "modern" way is the only way of doing things. The American experiment is just that, an experiment. It is not the measure of all things. Our system of laws is the product of many centuries of social and economic development. If we really want to nurture liberal democracy in Russia, we should stop trying to bully and exploit them and allow progress to occur.
It's remarkable to me how much you downplay Russian crackdowns on freedoms and Russian aggression when everyone knows based on your long posting history that if it were the US engaged in such conduct, you'd be one of the leading critics.

What happened to you that turned you against your country to the point you're nothing more than a Russian shill at this point? Serious question.
If Russia were meddling on our borders the way we do on theirs, no one would criticize us for responding…including you. You simply have no objectivity on the matter.
Mothra
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

The_barBEARian said:

ATL Bear said:

Doc Holliday said:

Redbrickbear said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

You can have your wars%85but this BS has got to stop:


add this to the stories of four-digit hammers and five-digit toilet seats...... %A0It's what happens when you place cost controls on the big-ticket parts of the program. %A0It causes allocation of expenses into the margins. %A0 %A0

If this was a case of garden-variety bilking, we would not be seeing steady trends of consolidation in our defense industrial base.


If global hegemony domination means we turn into a quasi socialist country made of wage slaves forking over financial freedom%85then what is the point of global hegemony?


Great point
Thanks

I kind of see it like selling our soul. We're willing to drop trillions on Ukraine and any other war/s in order to supposedly dominate Russia or other countries that pose a threat to western dominance and in process of doing so we print trillions further devaluing the dollar by creating insane inflation.

We "succeed" in war efforts at the cost of destroying our middle class, in effect it's like we're becoming that which we're fighting against.
You guys are distracted. In 2022 we spent $4.5 Trillion on medical services of which 90% was paid for by private insurance (highly subsidized/regulated industry) or the preponderance by Medicare and Medicaid. %A0A number that rises at a 4-8% clip annually regardless of inflation. %A0Check it out. How much of your income goes toward Ukraine versus the healthcare costs of others from your private insurance to your Medicare tax to your income tax that gets allocated to Medicaid? %A0If there's a "MIC" you're a wage slave to it's the Medical/Healthcare Industrial Complex. %A0

That is if we want to have an honest conversation about fiscal concerns. %A0


While I agree in principle, at least Medicare has a direct benefit on actual Americans.

Foreign aid has a negligible benefit to Americans and is the most obvious and insulting waste of tax dollars.

Especially in the case of Ukraine, where supporting them turns a Christian Orthodox Russia into an unnecessary enemy.

Putin already said multiple times he is ready to take a peace deal. Was Hitler offering peace deals after he annexed Austria?

It is you psychopaths who support Biden who are perpetrating this war but ofc you are too cowardly and pathetic to actually go fight it yourselves.
There you go again thinking Russia is this bastion of Christian ideals and defender of Christianity. %A0Absolutely insane. %A0
The GOP is no bastion of Christian ideals, but it is often a defender of Christianity. Two things can be true at once.
Considering any political entity a defender of Christianity in any form is as misguided as it is idiotic. %A0
If so then it's equally misguided to criticize any political entity for not being a defender of Christianity.
If so, then it is lobial absentia to believe Russian Orthodoxy is a victim and at stake here. %A0The poor poor persecuted Russian Orthodox Christians, following their despot in the fight against the anti-Christian world around them. %A0
They are certainly being persecuted in Ukraine, but there's no point in arguing about that. The next time you recognize an obvious fact will be the first.
You'd think on a Baylor message board there'd be the slightest bit of sympathy for the Baptist's in Eastern Ukraine getting tortured and demanded to pledge loyalty to the Russian Orthodox Church under the guidance of priests. %A0Or the outlawing and restrictions on evangelism in Russia proper, or the outlawing of denominations like Jehovah's Witness under terrorism laws. %A0But then you provided a crusade era quote in defending Patriarch Kirill. %A0I knew you guys held Putin and Russia above the U.S., I just never expected you to hold them above our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. %A0Welcome to the shame of Christian nationalism. %A0
I don't lack sympathy for Baptists under Russian law, nor am I saying we should follow the example of the Crusades. I'm just pointing out the irony of your comparing Patriarch Kirill to an Islamic jihadist when Christians have long justified anti-Muslim crusades in the same manner. And of course Protestants and Catholics have committed many crimes against each other over the centuries, with Protestants being the worse by far. None of this is new. Just get a little sense of history before making such absurd statements, that's all.
Absurd? It's because I know the history that I point out what Putin with his Patriarch lackey Kirill are doing. They've even added a greater Rus prayer to the liturgy. Your boy's so enthralled with his history he's apparently thinking they're building the third Rome with the techniques from the Middle Ages. The West put away the holy war approach a long time ago, unlike the Islamists. Kirill is bringing it back under Russo-nationalism. Your crusade era quote appears to try and justify it.

I know Putin is using the church to manipulate and control Russia, I'm just shocked at how many of you seem to sympathize with the effort.
The laws you're talking about are part of Russia's anti-terrorism legislation. Obviously they've taken a different approach and chosen to limit free speech in order not to give free rein to Islamist ideology and other foreign influences. Time will tell the results, but calling it a holy war is indeed absurd.

It would be arrogant to presume that the "modern" way is the only way of doing things. The American experiment is just that, an experiment. It is not the measure of all things. Our system of laws is the product of many centuries of social and economic development. If we really want to nurture liberal democracy in Russia, we should stop trying to bully and exploit them and allow progress to occur.
Sam, you can twist it however you want, but you know what's going on here. It's just hard to admit it given how you've dug in for the Russians. Coercing the populace toward the preferred religious structure, and using that platform as a pillar of power is as old as religion and as modern as today.
Of course it's as old as time. So what's your point? Why single out Russia when Ukraine does as bad or worse?
Because your last sentence is patently false,
No, but let's say it is false. Why single them out in any case? Are they worse than Saudi Arabia? For that matter are they worse than Europe? The Brits will arrest you these days if you stand in front of an abortion clinic with a less than exuberant look on your face.
An even better question is, why defend them?
Mothra
How long do you want to ignore this user?
So alleged US meddling on Russian borders justifies political imprisonment and assassinations, severe crackdowns on free speech, religious persecution, cyber terrorism, and invading your sovereign neighbors?

LOL. Again I ask, when did you become such an anti-American Russian shill? When was it and what caused it?
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mothra said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

The_barBEARian said:

ATL Bear said:

Doc Holliday said:

Redbrickbear said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

You can have your wars%85but this BS has got to stop:


add this to the stories of four-digit hammers and five-digit toilet seats...... %A0It's what happens when you place cost controls on the big-ticket parts of the program. %A0It causes allocation of expenses into the margins. %A0 %A0

If this was a case of garden-variety bilking, we would not be seeing steady trends of consolidation in our defense industrial base.


If global hegemony domination means we turn into a quasi socialist country made of wage slaves forking over financial freedom%85then what is the point of global hegemony?


Great point
Thanks

I kind of see it like selling our soul. We're willing to drop trillions on Ukraine and any other war/s in order to supposedly dominate Russia or other countries that pose a threat to western dominance and in process of doing so we print trillions further devaluing the dollar by creating insane inflation.

We "succeed" in war efforts at the cost of destroying our middle class, in effect it's like we're becoming that which we're fighting against.
You guys are distracted. In 2022 we spent $4.5 Trillion on medical services of which 90% was paid for by private insurance (highly subsidized/regulated industry) or the preponderance by Medicare and Medicaid. %A0A number that rises at a 4-8% clip annually regardless of inflation. %A0Check it out. How much of your income goes toward Ukraine versus the healthcare costs of others from your private insurance to your Medicare tax to your income tax that gets allocated to Medicaid? %A0If there's a "MIC" you're a wage slave to it's the Medical/Healthcare Industrial Complex. %A0

That is if we want to have an honest conversation about fiscal concerns. %A0


While I agree in principle, at least Medicare has a direct benefit on actual Americans.

Foreign aid has a negligible benefit to Americans and is the most obvious and insulting waste of tax dollars.

Especially in the case of Ukraine, where supporting them turns a Christian Orthodox Russia into an unnecessary enemy.

Putin already said multiple times he is ready to take a peace deal. Was Hitler offering peace deals after he annexed Austria?

It is you psychopaths who support Biden who are perpetrating this war but ofc you are too cowardly and pathetic to actually go fight it yourselves.
There you go again thinking Russia is this bastion of Christian ideals and defender of Christianity. %A0Absolutely insane. %A0
The GOP is no bastion of Christian ideals, but it is often a defender of Christianity. Two things can be true at once.
Considering any political entity a defender of Christianity in any form is as misguided as it is idiotic. %A0
If so then it's equally misguided to criticize any political entity for not being a defender of Christianity.
If so, then it is lobial absentia to believe Russian Orthodoxy is a victim and at stake here. %A0The poor poor persecuted Russian Orthodox Christians, following their despot in the fight against the anti-Christian world around them. %A0
They are certainly being persecuted in Ukraine, but there's no point in arguing about that. The next time you recognize an obvious fact will be the first.
You'd think on a Baylor message board there'd be the slightest bit of sympathy for the Baptist's in Eastern Ukraine getting tortured and demanded to pledge loyalty to the Russian Orthodox Church under the guidance of priests. %A0Or the outlawing and restrictions on evangelism in Russia proper, or the outlawing of denominations like Jehovah's Witness under terrorism laws. %A0But then you provided a crusade era quote in defending Patriarch Kirill. %A0I knew you guys held Putin and Russia above the U.S., I just never expected you to hold them above our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. %A0Welcome to the shame of Christian nationalism. %A0
I don't lack sympathy for Baptists under Russian law, nor am I saying we should follow the example of the Crusades. I'm just pointing out the irony of your comparing Patriarch Kirill to an Islamic jihadist when Christians have long justified anti-Muslim crusades in the same manner. And of course Protestants and Catholics have committed many crimes against each other over the centuries, with Protestants being the worse by far. None of this is new. Just get a little sense of history before making such absurd statements, that's all.
Absurd? It's because I know the history that I point out what Putin with his Patriarch lackey Kirill are doing. They've even added a greater Rus prayer to the liturgy. Your boy's so enthralled with his history he's apparently thinking they're building the third Rome with the techniques from the Middle Ages. The West put away the holy war approach a long time ago, unlike the Islamists. Kirill is bringing it back under Russo-nationalism. Your crusade era quote appears to try and justify it.

I know Putin is using the church to manipulate and control Russia, I'm just shocked at how many of you seem to sympathize with the effort.
The laws you're talking about are part of Russia's anti-terrorism legislation. Obviously they've taken a different approach and chosen to limit free speech in order not to give free rein to Islamist ideology and other foreign influences. Time will tell the results, but calling it a holy war is indeed absurd.

It would be arrogant to presume that the "modern" way is the only way of doing things. The American experiment is just that, an experiment. It is not the measure of all things. Our system of laws is the product of many centuries of social and economic development. If we really want to nurture liberal democracy in Russia, we should stop trying to bully and exploit them and allow progress to occur.
Sam, you can twist it however you want, but you know what's going on here. It's just hard to admit it given how you've dug in for the Russians. Coercing the populace toward the preferred religious structure, and using that platform as a pillar of power is as old as religion and as modern as today.
Of course it's as old as time. So what's your point? Why single out Russia when Ukraine does as bad or worse?
Because your last sentence is patently false,
No, but let's say it is false. Why single them out in any case? Are they worse than Saudi Arabia? For that matter are they worse than Europe? The Brits will arrest you these days if you stand in front of an abortion clinic with a less than exuberant look on your face.
An even better question is, why defend them?
Because in many ways Putin is more of an ally to Christianity than our Western regimes. And you're kidding yourself if you don't think that's part of why he's so hated.
Mothra
How long do you want to ignore this user?
The_barBEARian said:

Mothra said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

The_barBEARian said:

ATL Bear said:

Doc Holliday said:

Redbrickbear said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

You can have your wars…but this BS has got to stop:


add this to the stories of four-digit hammers and five-digit toilet seats...... It's what happens when you place cost controls on the big-ticket parts of the program. It causes allocation of expenses into the margins.

If this was a case of garden-variety bilking, we would not be seeing steady trends of consolidation in our defense industrial base.


If global hegemony domination means we turn into a quasi socialist country made of wage slaves forking over financial freedom…then what is the point of global hegemony?


Great point
Thanks

I kind of see it like selling our soul. We're willing to drop trillions on Ukraine and any other war/s in order to supposedly dominate Russia or other countries that pose a threat to western dominance and in process of doing so we print trillions further devaluing the dollar by creating insane inflation.

We "succeed" in war efforts at the cost of destroying our middle class, in effect it's like we're becoming that which we're fighting against.
You guys are distracted. In 2022 we spent $4.5 Trillion on medical services of which 90% was paid for by private insurance (highly subsidized/regulated industry) or the preponderance by Medicare and Medicaid. A number that rises at a 4-8% clip annually regardless of inflation. Check it out. How much of your income goes toward Ukraine versus the healthcare costs of others from your private insurance to your Medicare tax to your income tax that gets allocated to Medicaid? If there's a "MIC" you're a wage slave to it's the Medical/Healthcare Industrial Complex.

That is if we want to have an honest conversation about fiscal concerns.


While I agree in principle, at least Medicare has a direct benefit on actual Americans.

Foreign aid has a negligible benefit to Americans and is the most obvious and insulting waste of tax dollars.

Especially in the case of Ukraine, where supporting them turns a Christian Orthodox Russia into an unnecessary enemy.

Putin already said multiple times he is ready to take a peace deal. Was Hitler offering peace deals after he annexed Austria?

It is you psychopaths who support Biden who are perpetrating this war but ofc you are too cowardly and pathetic to actually go fight it yourselves.
There you go again thinking Russia is this bastion of Christian ideals and defender of Christianity. Absolutely insane.
The GOP is no bastion of Christian ideals, but it is often a defender of Christianity. Two things can be true at once.
Considering any political entity a defender of Christianity in any form is as misguided as it is idiotic.
If so then it's equally misguided to criticize any political entity for not being a defender of Christianity.
If so, then it is lobial absentia to believe Russian Orthodoxy is a victim and at stake here. The poor poor persecuted Russian Orthodox Christians, following their despot in the fight against the anti-Christian world around them.
They are certainly being persecuted in Ukraine, but there's no point in arguing about that. The next time you recognize an obvious fact will be the first.
You'd think on a Baylor message board there'd be the slightest bit of sympathy for the Baptist's in Eastern Ukraine getting tortured and demanded to pledge loyalty to the Russian Orthodox Church



Why?

You guys never spoke up for or cared about the Middle Eastern Christians who got wiped out by 20 years of endless interventions in the that part of the world.

I have never heard you say a negative word about Bush and his wars of choice that did this…

Iraq Christians in 2001: 1.5 million

Iraq Christians in 2020: 150,000

Total destruction of their community by the lords of the universe in DC

[In 2022, Christian leaders report that the number of Christians has dropped from a pre-2003 estimate of fewer than 1.5 million to 150,000.]


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Iraq


You don't care about Iraqi Christians, it's just another data point you can use to take a pot shot.

.


And of course you and the interventionists are the ones who really care right?

Invading and bombing their country (and unleashing Islamist terrorism) is NOT showing that you care about these Iraq Christians.

Your approach in Eastern Europe is likely to be the same story of blood and misery for the Christians there….
I was responding to a poster and others who are elevating Russia as some bastion of a Christian nation so far as arguing Just War, and defending the manipulation of the church.
Honestly, it is incredible to me the transformation that has taken place among American conservatives. The pendulum has swung so far from the neo-conservative position that we have conservatives who now espouse a traditional leftist ideology, where America is the great enemy of peace in the world. I wonder how much the conservatives on this thread realize they sound like good little leftist Noam Chomsky adherents.

Its called isolationism and there is nothing leftist about it.
There's a significant difference between isolationism and the bull**** some of you are espousing on this thread. When you're perfectly fine with and even defend countries like Russia invading and interfering with other countries, but blame the US for the world's ills, that is a VERY leftist mindset.

As I said, you guys sound like good little leftists.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mothra said:

So alleged US meddling on Russian borders justifies political imprisonment and assassinations, severe crackdowns on free speech, religious persecution, cyber terrorism, and invading your sovereign neighbors?

LOL. Again I ask, when did you become such an anti-American Russian shill? When was it and what caused it?
I didn't become anything. Anyone who criticizes the American imperium will always be name-called by the warmongers and jingoes. You called me worse than that during the Iraq war, until you figured out I was right. It's par for the course.
The_barBEARian
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mothra said:

The_barBEARian said:

Mothra said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

The_barBEARian said:

ATL Bear said:

Doc Holliday said:

Redbrickbear said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

You can have your wars…but this BS has got to stop:


add this to the stories of four-digit hammers and five-digit toilet seats...... It's what happens when you place cost controls on the big-ticket parts of the program. It causes allocation of expenses into the margins.

If this was a case of garden-variety bilking, we would not be seeing steady trends of consolidation in our defense industrial base.


If global hegemony domination means we turn into a quasi socialist country made of wage slaves forking over financial freedom…then what is the point of global hegemony?


Great point
Thanks

I kind of see it like selling our soul. We're willing to drop trillions on Ukraine and any other war/s in order to supposedly dominate Russia or other countries that pose a threat to western dominance and in process of doing so we print trillions further devaluing the dollar by creating insane inflation.

We "succeed" in war efforts at the cost of destroying our middle class, in effect it's like we're becoming that which we're fighting against.
You guys are distracted. In 2022 we spent $4.5 Trillion on medical services of which 90% was paid for by private insurance (highly subsidized/regulated industry) or the preponderance by Medicare and Medicaid. A number that rises at a 4-8% clip annually regardless of inflation. Check it out. How much of your income goes toward Ukraine versus the healthcare costs of others from your private insurance to your Medicare tax to your income tax that gets allocated to Medicaid? If there's a "MIC" you're a wage slave to it's the Medical/Healthcare Industrial Complex.

That is if we want to have an honest conversation about fiscal concerns.


While I agree in principle, at least Medicare has a direct benefit on actual Americans.

Foreign aid has a negligible benefit to Americans and is the most obvious and insulting waste of tax dollars.

Especially in the case of Ukraine, where supporting them turns a Christian Orthodox Russia into an unnecessary enemy.

Putin already said multiple times he is ready to take a peace deal. Was Hitler offering peace deals after he annexed Austria?

It is you psychopaths who support Biden who are perpetrating this war but ofc you are too cowardly and pathetic to actually go fight it yourselves.
There you go again thinking Russia is this bastion of Christian ideals and defender of Christianity. Absolutely insane.
The GOP is no bastion of Christian ideals, but it is often a defender of Christianity. Two things can be true at once.
Considering any political entity a defender of Christianity in any form is as misguided as it is idiotic.
If so then it's equally misguided to criticize any political entity for not being a defender of Christianity.
If so, then it is lobial absentia to believe Russian Orthodoxy is a victim and at stake here. The poor poor persecuted Russian Orthodox Christians, following their despot in the fight against the anti-Christian world around them.
They are certainly being persecuted in Ukraine, but there's no point in arguing about that. The next time you recognize an obvious fact will be the first.
You'd think on a Baylor message board there'd be the slightest bit of sympathy for the Baptist's in Eastern Ukraine getting tortured and demanded to pledge loyalty to the Russian Orthodox Church



Why?

You guys never spoke up for or cared about the Middle Eastern Christians who got wiped out by 20 years of endless interventions in the that part of the world.

I have never heard you say a negative word about Bush and his wars of choice that did this…

Iraq Christians in 2001: 1.5 million

Iraq Christians in 2020: 150,000

Total destruction of their community by the lords of the universe in DC

[In 2022, Christian leaders report that the number of Christians has dropped from a pre-2003 estimate of fewer than 1.5 million to 150,000.]


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Iraq


You don't care about Iraqi Christians, it's just another data point you can use to take a pot shot.

.


And of course you and the interventionists are the ones who really care right?

Invading and bombing their country (and unleashing Islamist terrorism) is NOT showing that you care about these Iraq Christians.

Your approach in Eastern Europe is likely to be the same story of blood and misery for the Christians there….
I was responding to a poster and others who are elevating Russia as some bastion of a Christian nation so far as arguing Just War, and defending the manipulation of the church.
Honestly, it is incredible to me the transformation that has taken place among American conservatives. The pendulum has swung so far from the neo-conservative position that we have conservatives who now espouse a traditional leftist ideology, where America is the great enemy of peace in the world. I wonder how much the conservatives on this thread realize they sound like good little leftist Noam Chomsky adherents.

Its called isolationism and there is nothing leftist about it.
There's a significant difference between isolationism and the bull**** some of you are espousing on this thread. When you're perfectly fine with and even defend countries like Russia invading and interfering with other countries, but blame the US for the world's ills, that is a VERY leftist mindset.

As I said, you guys sound like good little leftists.

And you want to steal our money to waste on foreign interventionism.

Whats worse? Having an opinion or stealing your money, devaluing your savings, and effectively making you a slave to foreign governments.

China and Russia might not be friendly but my own government and half the people in this country are clearly my enemies.
Doc Holliday
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Can anyone answer this following questions?

Is Russia weak or not?

If they are weak, then how are they a global threat?

If they aren't weak, then how is Ukraine going to stop them?
Mothra
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My friend, you have been deceived. While Putin may share some cultural beliefs with people who call themselves "Christians," he is no ally of Christianity in any way, shape or form. When you pass laws that outlaw evangelism outside of the church building, and severely restrict and penalize those who practice a faith other than the Russian Orthodoxy, that is in no way Christian. You might want to talk to some missionaries to Russia just to see how oppressive it's become.

The irony here is, you're defending a guy who is the antithesis of Christianity and democracy because he is an ally in the cultural war, yet constantly decry Trump because he's an anti-democratic despot, despite the fact he is also an ally in the cultural war and has achieved more in that battle than any Republican president before him. It's remarkable.
The_barBEARian
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Mothra said:

My friend, you have been deceived. While Putin may share some cultural beliefs with people who call themselves "Christians," he is no ally of Christianity in any way, shape or form. When you pass laws that outlaw evangelism outside of the church building, and severely restrict and penalize those who practice a faith other than the Russian Orthodoxy, that is in no way Christian. You might want to talk to some missionaries to Russia just to see how oppressive it's become.

The irony here is, you're defending a guy who is the antithesis of Christianity and democracy because he is an ally in the cultural war, yet constantly decry Trump because he's an anti-democratic despot, despite the fact he is also an ally in the cultural war and has achieved more in that battle than any Republican president before him. It's remarkable.

Agree with you on this!

Trump 2024!
Redbrickbear
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Doc Holliday said:

Can anyone answer this following questions?

Is Russia weak or not?

If they are weak, then how are they a global threat?

If they aren't weak, then how is Ukraine going to stop them?

The answer of course is whatever will get you to support an expansionist/interventionist foreign policy and spending billions on a proxy war....

"russia is weak....give us billions so we can finish the job!"

"russia is super strong...if we don't give billions then their tanks will roll into Berlin!"

You can see the game being played here
Mothra
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Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

So alleged US meddling on Russian borders justifies political imprisonment and assassinations, severe crackdowns on free speech, religious persecution, cyber terrorism, and invading your sovereign neighbors?

LOL. Again I ask, when did you become such an anti-American Russian shill? When was it and what caused it?
I didn't become anything. Anyone who criticizes the American imperium will always be name-called by the warmongers and jingoes. You called me worse than that during the Iraq war, until you figured out I was right. It's par for the course.
That might be the case if you weren't a warmonger yourself. But the problem is, you ARE a warmonger. You don't have a problem with Russian military interventionism and bloodletting in surrounding countries. You don't have a problem with Russian invading and killing civilian populations. In fact, you will go to great lengths to defend such behavior as Christian (which, incidentally, it doesn't sound like you're much of a Christian either).

Your position was correct in Iraq, we agree. But it appears something has changed, or that your true beliefs have been exposed. It doesn't appear to be war and the death and destruction it has wrought you have a problem with, but instead, America.

So again I ask: what happened? When did it happen? Or has it always been there?
The_barBEARian
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Mothra said:

Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

So alleged US meddling on Russian borders justifies political imprisonment and assassinations, severe crackdowns on free speech, religious persecution, cyber terrorism, and invading your sovereign neighbors?

LOL. Again I ask, when did you become such an anti-American Russian shill? When was it and what caused it?
I didn't become anything. Anyone who criticizes the American imperium will always be name-called by the warmongers and jingoes. You called me worse than that during the Iraq war, until you figured out I was right. It's par for the course.
That might be the case if you weren't a warmonger yourself. But the problem is, you ARE a warmonger. You don't have a problem with Russian military interventionism and bloodletting in surrounding countries. You don't have a problem with Russian invading and killing civilian populations. In fact, you will go to great lengths to defend such behavior as Christian (which, incidentally, it doesn't sound like you're much of a Christian either).

Your position was correct in Iraq, we agree. But it appears something has changed, or that your true beliefs have been exposed. It doesn't appear to be war and the death and destruction it has wrought you have a problem with, but instead, America.

So again I ask: what happened? When did it happen? Or has it always been there?

What kind of absurd gaslighting bull**** is this?

Is he serving in the Russian army? No? So why are you blaming him for their actions?

From what I have seen from Sam's posts is that he points out we are the ones antagonizing Russia rather than trying to calm things down and reach some kind of peace deal.

If I was your neighbor and I constantly moved the barriers defining our property lines further and further into your property and one day you had enough and moved the property barriers all the way back to the original property line, would it be acceptable to attack you and claim you were invading my property?

Ofc peace will never happen while Biden is President. Trump is the only hope for peace in Ukraine.
Mothra
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The_barBEARian said:

Mothra said:

The_barBEARian said:

Mothra said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

The_barBEARian said:

ATL Bear said:

Doc Holliday said:

Redbrickbear said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

You can have your wars…but this BS has got to stop:


add this to the stories of four-digit hammers and five-digit toilet seats...... It's what happens when you place cost controls on the big-ticket parts of the program. It causes allocation of expenses into the margins.

If this was a case of garden-variety bilking, we would not be seeing steady trends of consolidation in our defense industrial base.


If global hegemony domination means we turn into a quasi socialist country made of wage slaves forking over financial freedom…then what is the point of global hegemony?


Great point
Thanks

I kind of see it like selling our soul. We're willing to drop trillions on Ukraine and any other war/s in order to supposedly dominate Russia or other countries that pose a threat to western dominance and in process of doing so we print trillions further devaluing the dollar by creating insane inflation.

We "succeed" in war efforts at the cost of destroying our middle class, in effect it's like we're becoming that which we're fighting against.
You guys are distracted. In 2022 we spent $4.5 Trillion on medical services of which 90% was paid for by private insurance (highly subsidized/regulated industry) or the preponderance by Medicare and Medicaid. A number that rises at a 4-8% clip annually regardless of inflation. Check it out. How much of your income goes toward Ukraine versus the healthcare costs of others from your private insurance to your Medicare tax to your income tax that gets allocated to Medicaid? If there's a "MIC" you're a wage slave to it's the Medical/Healthcare Industrial Complex.

That is if we want to have an honest conversation about fiscal concerns.


While I agree in principle, at least Medicare has a direct benefit on actual Americans.

Foreign aid has a negligible benefit to Americans and is the most obvious and insulting waste of tax dollars.

Especially in the case of Ukraine, where supporting them turns a Christian Orthodox Russia into an unnecessary enemy.

Putin already said multiple times he is ready to take a peace deal. Was Hitler offering peace deals after he annexed Austria?

It is you psychopaths who support Biden who are perpetrating this war but ofc you are too cowardly and pathetic to actually go fight it yourselves.
There you go again thinking Russia is this bastion of Christian ideals and defender of Christianity. Absolutely insane.
The GOP is no bastion of Christian ideals, but it is often a defender of Christianity. Two things can be true at once.
Considering any political entity a defender of Christianity in any form is as misguided as it is idiotic.
If so then it's equally misguided to criticize any political entity for not being a defender of Christianity.
If so, then it is lobial absentia to believe Russian Orthodoxy is a victim and at stake here. The poor poor persecuted Russian Orthodox Christians, following their despot in the fight against the anti-Christian world around them.
They are certainly being persecuted in Ukraine, but there's no point in arguing about that. The next time you recognize an obvious fact will be the first.
You'd think on a Baylor message board there'd be the slightest bit of sympathy for the Baptist's in Eastern Ukraine getting tortured and demanded to pledge loyalty to the Russian Orthodox Church



Why?

You guys never spoke up for or cared about the Middle Eastern Christians who got wiped out by 20 years of endless interventions in the that part of the world.

I have never heard you say a negative word about Bush and his wars of choice that did this…

Iraq Christians in 2001: 1.5 million

Iraq Christians in 2020: 150,000

Total destruction of their community by the lords of the universe in DC

[In 2022, Christian leaders report that the number of Christians has dropped from a pre-2003 estimate of fewer than 1.5 million to 150,000.]


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Iraq


You don't care about Iraqi Christians, it's just another data point you can use to take a pot shot.

.


And of course you and the interventionists are the ones who really care right?

Invading and bombing their country (and unleashing Islamist terrorism) is NOT showing that you care about these Iraq Christians.

Your approach in Eastern Europe is likely to be the same story of blood and misery for the Christians there….
I was responding to a poster and others who are elevating Russia as some bastion of a Christian nation so far as arguing Just War, and defending the manipulation of the church.
Honestly, it is incredible to me the transformation that has taken place among American conservatives. The pendulum has swung so far from the neo-conservative position that we have conservatives who now espouse a traditional leftist ideology, where America is the great enemy of peace in the world. I wonder how much the conservatives on this thread realize they sound like good little leftist Noam Chomsky adherents.

Its called isolationism and there is nothing leftist about it.
There's a significant difference between isolationism and the bull**** some of you are espousing on this thread. When you're perfectly fine with and even defend countries like Russia invading and interfering with other countries, but blame the US for the world's ills, that is a VERY leftist mindset.

As I said, you guys sound like good little leftists.

And you want to steal our money to waste on foreign interventionism.

Whats worse? Having an opinion or stealing your money, devaluing your savings, and effectively making you a slave to foreign governments.

China and Russia might not be friendly but my own government and half the people in this country are clearly my enemies.
I want to steal our money and waste it on foreign wars? Um no. I've been against our support for the Ukraine war since the beginning.

You need to stop making assumptions and address the points I've made.
Redbrickbear
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Mothra said:

Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

So alleged US meddling on Russian borders justifies political imprisonment and assassinations, severe crackdowns on free speech, religious persecution, cyber terrorism, and invading your sovereign neighbors?

LOL. Again I ask, when did you become such an anti-American Russian shill? When was it and what caused it?
I didn't become anything. Anyone who criticizes the American imperium will always be name-called by the warmongers and jingoes. You called me worse than that during the Iraq war, until you figured out I was right. It's par for the course.
That might be the case if you weren't a warmonger yourself. But the problem is, you ARE a warmonger. You don't have a problem with Russian military interventionism and bloodletting in surrounding countries.

I think people do have a problem with that...

But we have to remember we flew across the world to invade Iraq and Afghanistan (rightly or wrongly)

While Ukraine and Georgia are right on Russia's borders (like Canada and Mexico for the USA)

We look a little hypocritical no?

And we specifically have an alliance network called NATO that lets us know what countries we should/and must fight Russia over.

Ukraine and Georgia are NOT in that alliance network.




Mothra
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The_barBEARian said:

Mothra said:

Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

So alleged US meddling on Russian borders justifies political imprisonment and assassinations, severe crackdowns on free speech, religious persecution, cyber terrorism, and invading your sovereign neighbors?

LOL. Again I ask, when did you become such an anti-American Russian shill? When was it and what caused it?
I didn't become anything. Anyone who criticizes the American imperium will always be name-called by the warmongers and jingoes. You called me worse than that during the Iraq war, until you figured out I was right. It's par for the course.
That might be the case if you weren't a warmonger yourself. But the problem is, you ARE a warmonger. You don't have a problem with Russian military interventionism and bloodletting in surrounding countries. You don't have a problem with Russian invading and killing civilian populations. In fact, you will go to great lengths to defend such behavior as Christian (which, incidentally, it doesn't sound like you're much of a Christian either).

Your position was correct in Iraq, we agree. But it appears something has changed, or that your true beliefs have been exposed. It doesn't appear to be war and the death and destruction it has wrought you have a problem with, but instead, America.

So again I ask: what happened? When did it happen? Or has it always been there?

What kind of absurd gaslighting bull**** is this?

Is he serving in the Russian army? No? So why are you blaming him for their actions?

From what I have seen from Sam's posts is that he points out we are the ones antagonizing Russia rather than trying to calm things down and reach some kind of peace deal.

If I was your neighbor and I constantly moved the barriers defining our property lines further and further into your property and one day you had enough and moved the property barriers all the way back to the original property line, would it be acceptable to attack you and claim you were invading my property?

Ofc peace will never happen while Biden is President. Trump is the only hope for peace in Ukraine.
Again, this is you making assumptions.

I've never defended US actions in and around Ukraine, and have said that the Biden admin (and Obama before him) share much of the blame for the reason we are here. In fact, I have been one of the only consistent anti-war and anti-interventionist conservatives on this board as of late. I've recognized the bad that the West has done, and its responsibility for ratcheting up tensions in Russia. I firmly believe that if Biden had given Putin the security assurances he asked for, we wouldn't be here. But as we all know, Biden and the Dem regime want to punish Russia for Trump. That is why I place a lot of the blame squarely on their shoulders.

However, unlike some of you, I also have the ability to recognize that invading foreign countries, incorporating their territory, and shelling their civilian populations is likewise wrong and anti-Christian. I have the ability to recognize that while Putin may be an ally in some respects in the cultural war, he is likewise an enemy in many respects. He is anti-Democratic despot with little value for human life and personal freedoms. And we shouldn't be in the business of defending despots and excusing their behavior, as Sam is perfectly willing to do.

Be consistent. Call a spade a spade. If war is wrong, killing civilians is wrong, and intervening in the affairs of another country is wrong when Americans do it, it is likewise wrong when other countries, such as Russia, do it.
Mothra
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Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

So alleged US meddling on Russian borders justifies political imprisonment and assassinations, severe crackdowns on free speech, religious persecution, cyber terrorism, and invading your sovereign neighbors?

LOL. Again I ask, when did you become such an anti-American Russian shill? When was it and what caused it?
I didn't become anything. Anyone who criticizes the American imperium will always be name-called by the warmongers and jingoes. You called me worse than that during the Iraq war, until you figured out I was right. It's par for the course.
That might be the case if you weren't a warmonger yourself. But the problem is, you ARE a warmonger. You don't have a problem with Russian military interventionism and bloodletting in surrounding countries.

I think people do have a problem with that...

But we have to remember we flew across the world to invade Iraq and Afghanistan (rightly or wrongly)

While Ukraine and Georgia are right on Russia's borders (like Canada and Mexico for the USA)

We look a little hypocritical no?

And we specifically have an alliance network called NATO that lets us know what countries we should/and must fight Russia over.

Ukraine and Georgia are NOT in that alliance network.





I understand the moral equivalency argument, and can't dispute we have engaged in similar conduct in the past. But if that was wrong when WE did it, as people like you and Sam argue, then it's also wrong when Russia engages in similar conduct.
Sam Lowry
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Mothra said:

My friend, you have been deceived. While Putin may share some cultural beliefs with people who call themselves "Christians," he is no ally of Christianity in any way, shape or form. When you pass laws that outlaw evangelism outside of the church building, and severely restrict and penalize those who practice a faith other than the Russian Orthodoxy, that is in no way Christian. You might want to talk to some missionaries to Russia just to see how oppressive it's become.

The irony here is, you're defending a guy who is the antithesis of Christianity and democracy because he is an ally in the cultural war, yet constantly decry Trump because he's an anti-democratic despot, despite the fact he is also an ally in the cultural war and has achieved more in that battle than any Republican president before him. It's remarkable.
Evangelism is regulated, not outlawed. Russia recognizes the importance of all forms of Christianity, as well as Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism, not just Russian Orthodoxy. I disagree with many of their policies, but none of that is really relevant to the war.

I also recognize that Trump is a cultural ally and has done many good things. I'm not willing to support him any more because I actually care about democracy in this country. The irony is that you criticize others while still supporting Trump, despite his open assaults on the republic, as long as he furthers your cultural agenda.
Sam Lowry
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Mothra said:

Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

So alleged US meddling on Russian borders justifies political imprisonment and assassinations, severe crackdowns on free speech, religious persecution, cyber terrorism, and invading your sovereign neighbors?

LOL. Again I ask, when did you become such an anti-American Russian shill? When was it and what caused it?
I didn't become anything. Anyone who criticizes the American imperium will always be name-called by the warmongers and jingoes. You called me worse than that during the Iraq war, until you figured out I was right. It's par for the course.
That might be the case if you weren't a warmonger yourself. But the problem is, you ARE a warmonger. You don't have a problem with Russian military interventionism and bloodletting in surrounding countries. You don't have a problem with Russian invading and killing civilian populations. In fact, you will go to great lengths to defend such behavior as Christian (which, incidentally, it doesn't sound like you're much of a Christian either).

Your position was correct in Iraq, we agree. But it appears something has changed, or that your true beliefs have been exposed. It doesn't appear to be war and the death and destruction it has wrought you have a problem with, but instead, America.

So again I ask: what happened? When did it happen? Or has it always been there?
Russia is not "killing civilian populations." They're acting deliberately and with the least amount of force required at each step, while it is we who insist on prolonging the death and destruction.
Redbrickbear
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Bear8084
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Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

So alleged US meddling on Russian borders justifies political imprisonment and assassinations, severe crackdowns on free speech, religious persecution, cyber terrorism, and invading your sovereign neighbors?

LOL. Again I ask, when did you become such an anti-American Russian shill? When was it and what caused it?
I didn't become anything. Anyone who criticizes the American imperium will always be name-called by the warmongers and jingoes. You called me worse than that during the Iraq war, until you figured out I was right. It's par for the course.
That might be the case if you weren't a warmonger yourself. But the problem is, you ARE a warmonger. You don't have a problem with Russian military interventionism and bloodletting in surrounding countries. You don't have a problem with Russian invading and killing civilian populations. In fact, you will go to great lengths to defend such behavior as Christian (which, incidentally, it doesn't sound like you're much of a Christian either).

Your position was correct in Iraq, we agree. But it appears something has changed, or that your true beliefs have been exposed. It doesn't appear to be war and the death and destruction it has wrought you have a problem with, but instead, America.

So again I ask: what happened? When did it happen? Or has it always been there?
Russia is not "killing civilian populations." They're acting deliberately and with the least amount of force required at each step, while it is we who insist on prolonging the death and destruction.


About as an absurd comment as thinking Putin is a knight for Christianity.
The_barBEARian
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Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

My friend, you have been deceived. While Putin may share some cultural beliefs with people who call themselves "Christians," he is no ally of Christianity in any way, shape or form. When you pass laws that outlaw evangelism outside of the church building, and severely restrict and penalize those who practice a faith other than the Russian Orthodoxy, that is in no way Christian. You might want to talk to some missionaries to Russia just to see how oppressive it's become.

The irony here is, you're defending a guy who is the antithesis of Christianity and democracy because he is an ally in the cultural war, yet constantly decry Trump because he's an anti-democratic despot, despite the fact he is also an ally in the cultural war and has achieved more in that battle than any Republican president before him. It's remarkable.
Evangelism is regulated, not outlawed. Russia recognizes the importance of all forms of Christianity, as well as Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism, not just Russian Orthodoxy. I disagree with many of their policies, but none of that is really relevant to the war.

I also recognize that Trump is a cultural ally and has done many good things. I'm not willing to support him any more because I actually care about democracy in this country. The irony is that you criticize others while still supporting Trump, despite his open assaults on the republic, as long as he furthers your cultural agenda.

Bruh.... what are you talking about?

Trump is the one guy not assaulting democracy.

Biden and the uniparty are the ones doing that. My proof that they stole the last election is their complete unwillingness to do anything to improve our election integrity.
Mothra
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Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

My friend, you have been deceived. While Putin may share some cultural beliefs with people who call themselves "Christians," he is no ally of Christianity in any way, shape or form. When you pass laws that outlaw evangelism outside of the church building, and severely restrict and penalize those who practice a faith other than the Russian Orthodoxy, that is in no way Christian. You might want to talk to some missionaries to Russia just to see how oppressive it's become.

The irony here is, you're defending a guy who is the antithesis of Christianity and democracy because he is an ally in the cultural war, yet constantly decry Trump because he's an anti-democratic despot, despite the fact he is also an ally in the cultural war and has achieved more in that battle than any Republican president before him. It's remarkable.
Evangelism is regulated, not outlawed. Russia recognizes the importance of all forms of Christianity, as well as Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism, not just Russian Orthodoxy. I disagree with many of their policies, but none of that is really relevant to the war.

I also recognize that Trump is a cultural ally and has done many good things. I'm not willing to support him any more because I actually care about democracy in this country. The irony is that you criticize others while still supporting Trump, despite his open assaults on the republic, as long as he furthers your cultural agenda.
Yes, there are a number of countries around the world that significantly impinge on Christianity in the guise of "regulation." But that wasn't the point. I took issue with your absurd position that Putin was an "ally" of Christianity. If by "ally" you mean he allows Christians to merely exist, well, sure, so long as of course they confine their beliefs to themselves and live in Russia (Ukraine is apparently a different matter altogether).

You're not willing to support Trump, but you will vociferously defend and support Putin for being a cultural ally. Is it because you are ethnocentric and only care about policies that personally affect you? Don't give a **** about the average every day Russian? We already know you couldn't give two ****s about the average Ukrainian, of course, so perhaps that's the case.

I would submit anyone who thinks there is any real danger Trump is going to overthrow democracy in our country is either a moron, or is all up in their emotions. There literally is zero chance Trump could come close to doing any of the things your little buddy Putin has done in Russia. Yet, you don't appear to care very much about winning the culture war here.
Mothra
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Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

So alleged US meddling on Russian borders justifies political imprisonment and assassinations, severe crackdowns on free speech, religious persecution, cyber terrorism, and invading your sovereign neighbors?

LOL. Again I ask, when did you become such an anti-American Russian shill? When was it and what caused it?
I didn't become anything. Anyone who criticizes the American imperium will always be name-called by the warmongers and jingoes. You called me worse than that during the Iraq war, until you figured out I was right. It's par for the course.
That might be the case if you weren't a warmonger yourself. But the problem is, you ARE a warmonger. You don't have a problem with Russian military interventionism and bloodletting in surrounding countries. You don't have a problem with Russian invading and killing civilian populations. In fact, you will go to great lengths to defend such behavior as Christian (which, incidentally, it doesn't sound like you're much of a Christian either).

Your position was correct in Iraq, we agree. But it appears something has changed, or that your true beliefs have been exposed. It doesn't appear to be war and the death and destruction it has wrought you have a problem with, but instead, America.

So again I ask: what happened? When did it happen? Or has it always been there?
Russia is not "killing civilian populations." They're acting deliberately and with the least amount of force required at each step, while it is we who insist on prolonging the death and destruction.
Complete and total horse ***** I posted more than a dozen instances of them either shelling or targeting civilian areas in another thread. They're a hell of a lot more indiscriminate than we were in Iraq.

But in either regard, in typical Sam Lowry fashion, this is you cherry-picking what you want to address while ignoring the overall point. Let's put aside the fact more than 10k Ukrainian civilians have died since the war began and pretend Russia isn't targeting civilian populations. The fact is, you are still on board with Russian military interventionism, invasion and bloodletting in surrounding countries while criticizing America for similar conduct.

You're a hypocrite and war monger of the tallest order.

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