Or stand by as an egomaniacal leader using history as a guide to global power realignment starts doing things that led us into the others.Realitybites said:
The moral of all this is that World Wars are bad, and we shouldn't let midwits like Victoria Nuland and Anthony Blinken blunder their way into a third one.
The Putin Interview
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Last: 25 days ago by Mothra
Everyone in a war has blood on their hands, but I don't typically blame combatants (either side) for battle decisions that might result in civilian casualties, even huge ones, if there is an objective, or things that might happen in the fog of war. Executing POWs and civilians in mass amounts after achieving the battle objectives rises to another level and is where war crimes come into play.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:I wouldn't call that an ass-kicking. Japan suffered massive losses, and the campaign only took a matter of months including liberating Manila.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:You should see the Chinese history books. And if you think the Bataan Death March was bogus, I'm not sure what to tell you.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:You really need to learn more about what Japan did in China, Korea and the Philippines, and I don't mean to American soldiers.KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Have read up on Japanese atrocities many times as the material is readily available.
Now try to find such similar studies on the US occupation of Japan.
The slaughter of almost 100,000 Okinawa civilians during our assault on that island.
The fire bombing of other Japanese cities ( after the Tokyo massacre) before the atomic bombs were dropped.
How Douglas MacArthur framed the Japanese general who kicked his ass in the Philippines, on bogus war crimes charges and HUNG the guy.
Now were we the 'good guys' in WW2 ……absolutely. Japan and Germany didn't give us many options but to fight.
But the winners always produce the vast majority of the history books. And book publishers want to make money.
And you don't make much money attempting to
sell books describing US atrocities to a US market .
The Bataan Death March was not blamed on General
Yamash ita . Otherwise known as the Tiger of Malaya . He was tried as a 'war criminal ' for the Japanese atrocities in Manila in 1945. Even though he was not in command of the Japanese troops in Manila .
His real 'crime' was embarrassing MacArthur' by holding on to much of Luzon until wars end even his troops were underfed and greatly outnumbered . Several US attorneys at the time said his execution was a huge miscarriage of American justice.
I thought you were referring to Gen. Homma's besting of MacArthur in the original invasion, which is considered one of the worst American military defeats in history, and resulted in the Bataan Death March.
But Yama****a had a lot of blood on his hands even if you excused him from the Manila Massacre. The Japanese occupiers were just brutal on the Filipino people and POWs.
Indeed the Japanese were brutal. Possibly more brutal than the Germans and equal to Russian brutality.
Easy to find the literature describing their butcheries.
But the Americans had a massive amount of blood on their hands as well . Much harder to find those details. It's out there, but it takes effort to dig it up.
Including the killing of thousands of British , Dutch and American prisoners of war as they were shipped from the Philippines to the Japanese home islands .
Through neutral channels the Japanese government announced their intentions to move these allied prisoners.
The US government agreed to give these ships safe passage. The US Navy agreed to give these Japanese ships clear sailing.
But somehow , someway US submarines sank several of these prison ships anyway .
And an estimated 8 thousand allied POW's drowned or were burned alive .
If there is a global power realignment going on, it is critical for us to grasp that it is our own doing. Our flawed monetary, fiscal, domestic, and foreign policy since the fall of the Berlin wall is what will permit it not foreign nations.
Realitybites said:
If there is a global power realignment going on, it is critical for us to grasp that it is our own doing. Our flawed monetary, fiscal, domestic, and foreign policy since the fall of the Berlin wall is what will permit it not foreign nations.
Not really.
We were acting as war criminals, according to Robert McNamara. Not a man unfamiliar with the realities or the nature of the war.ATL Bear said:As it relates to WW2, this is a decidedly recent phenomena of revisionist historical perspectives from people far removed from the realities of warfare of that period and the nature of the conflict.KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I think you meant LeMay, and he was drawing the contrast to winners and losers. But the war crimes even cast upon Japan and Germany were not related to battle tactics even if the post war guilt did give a nod to it. It involved almost exclusively the treatment of POWs and citizens in occupied territories.Sam Lowry said:We were acting as war criminals, according to Robert McNamara. Not a man unfamiliar with the realities or the nature of the war.ATL Bear said:As it relates to WW2, this is a decidedly recent phenomena of revisionist historical perspectives from people far removed from the realities of warfare of that period and the nature of the conflict.KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
More whataboutism/moral relativism. This seems to be your only justification for an illegal war that has killed thousands.KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
It's incredible to me you keep tapping into this logical fallacy in support of Putin's bloodlust. What has happened to your moral compass?
We will agree that the US hasn't always handled itself well in past conflicts, though it's a lot more discriminate in who it targets now, especially with today's missile technology - and certainly more targeted than Russia, as you yourself acknowledged.
Stop being a Russian shill.
Most of those figures I quoted come from the UN, the Red Cross, and Amnesty Int'l. Are you saying they're lying? If so, do you have proof?Sam Lowry said:You can rant and rave about exaggerated Russian atrocities, but anyone trying to provide a little perspective is creating "disproportion." Sounds like the double standard is all on your side.Mothra said:Who said I was fine with extrajudicial killings? Undoubtedly, there are bad actors on both sides. What's interesting to me, however, is both the disproportion and double standard, which you seem to be perfectly fine with. I mean, we literally have at a minimum 10,000 Ukrainian citizens killed, and I pointed out numerous instances of Russia targeting civilians, yet your response is, what about the targeted extra judicial killings of traitors? Hell, you don't say a word when another Russian oligarch or political opponent is imprisoned, poisoned or falls from a tall window, but now all of the sudden the Ukrainians are the bad guys for killing traitors. Yet, not a word from you when Putin does it?Sam Lowry said:1. There's no evidence that it was headed for a military target. To repeat with added emphasis this time: "Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.Mothra said:So, your evidence of these alleged civilian attacks is:Sam Lowry said:Quote:
MOSCOW, Aug 18 (Reuters) - A Ukrainian drone smashed into a building in central Moscow on Friday after Russian air defences shot it down, disrupting air traffic at all the civilian airports of the Russian capital, Russian officials said.
A Reuters witness who was in the area described hearing "a powerful explosion". Reuters images showed workers and emergency workers inspecting a damaged roof of a non-residential building which the drone hit.
Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/drone-attack-damaged-building-moscow-centre-2023-08-18/Quote:
BELGOROD, Russia, Feb 15 (Reuters) - Seven people including a one-year-old girl were killed in a Ukrainian missile attack on Thursday on the southern Russian city of Belgorod, regional governor Vyacheslav Gladkov said.
Eighteen other people, including four children, were hospitalised with injuries, with six in serious condition, Gladkov said, adding that four people, including two children, had already been released for outpatient treatment. He said the dead child's name was Valentina.
"We are all grieving with the families and friends of the victims," Gladkov wrote on Telegram. "I want to express my sincere condolences, realising that there are no words that can comfort this grief."
Later Gladkov said that another four injured, including two children, would be treated in Moscow.
Belgorod is the nearest major Russian city to the border with Ukraine, and the city and surrounding region have come under frequent attack since February 2022, when Russia sent its forces into Ukraine in what it calls a "special military operation".
Russian authorities said 25 civilians were killed in the largest of these attacks at the end of December.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/least-four-killed-ukrainian-missile-strike-belgorod-russian-media-2024-02-15/Quote:
THE OPERATION was a month in the making. Yevhen Yunakov, the mayor of Velykyi Burluk, in the Kharkiv region, had been identified as a collaborator with the Russians. "Caucasus", a special-forces commander, and a group of local officers were given the job. His men watched their target meticulously for days: when he shopped; when and where he moved; the extent of his security. Once they detonated their bomb, from a distance, they disappeared to safe-houses inside occupied territory. The group would return to Ukrainian-controlled territory only weeks later, after the town had been liberated. Yunakov's body has never been found.
Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself. They have been shot, blown up, hanged and even, on occasion, poisoned with doctored brandy. Ukraine is tight-lipped about its involvement in assassinations. But few doubt the increasingly competent signature of its security services.
Ukraine's leadership came under particular scrutiny in October, when the New York Times reported that the American government was blaming it for a car-bomb that killed Darya Dugina, daughter of Alexander Dugin, a nationalistic philosopher. That sharpened an already-lively internal debate within Ukrainian intelligence. It was unclear if Ms Dugina was meant to die; some reports suggest she had switched cars with her father.
But a subsequent string of operations targeting mid-level propagandists showed a trend that few of the insiders interviewed for this article were happy with. "These are marginal figures," says one source in SBU counter-intelligence. "It makes me uncomfortable." The former SBU fifth-directorate officer suggests the operations were designed to impress the president rather than bring victory any closer.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/09/05/inside-ukraines-assassination-programme
1) A Ukrainian drone most likely headed for a military target is shot down by the Russians and smashes into a building, killing nobody;
2) A Ukrainian missile, whose destination is unknown, kills 7 in a border city; and
3) Ukrainians may be targeting traitors in clinical operations in Ukrainian occupied territory.
Really? That's all you have?
And you have no response to the numerous actual human rights atrocities I referenced above?
Why am I not surprised?
2. It most likely had no specific destination. More on that later.
3. Not surprised that you support extrajudicial killing of noncombatants by Ukraine. Like you said, I guess it all depends on the actor. It is disturbing that you consider "mid-level propaganda" and "nationalistic philosophy" to be forms of treason. But that's not even the most glaring flaw in your argument. Again with emphasis: "Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself." Alexander Dugin was Russian, not Ukrainian. So no matter what you think of his opinions, he was no traitor to Ukraine. Much less his daughter, who was murdered on her way to an art festival outside Moscow.
But that's all just fine with you.
The only person fine with the double standard is yourself. You're ok with Russia invading and killing civilians. You are ok with a disproportionate number of Ukrainian civilian deaths. You won't say a word against Putin because of it.
The double standard is your pointing to a few targeted killings of traitors and remaining silent about thousands of Ukrainian civilian deaths, including women and children. But ok.
You recognize the difference between a campaign design to exterminate a race, and a bombing campaign that was designed to end WWII, no? You might want to read some of the biographies of the generals who made these decisions, and how conflicted they were.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
So raping women and summarily executing prisoners is now the equivalent of targeted bombing of cities designed to end the war?KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Wow. Incredible. I leave this thread for a few days and you've completely lost your ability to employ reason and logic. You've lost your mind.
Sam is upset we stopped Japan from marching across Asia.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Also, there is no strategic value to the atrocities Japan committed - Mass rape, torture, mutilations and beheading of POWs and innocent civilians.
...
But there kind of was.
1. Intimidate and terrorize the Chinese (and other conquered peoples) into pacified and compliant slaves
2. Ethically cleanse the areas they intended to resettle with Japanese racial stock
[After the Japanese occupation (1931) and establishment of Manchukuo, huge crowds of Japanese agricultural pioneers settled in Manchuria. The first wave of the migration was a five-year trial emigration plan. Many had been young, land-poor farmers in Japan that were recruited by the Patriotic Youth Brigade to colonize new settlements in Manchukuo.[1] The Manchukuo government had seized great portions of these land through "price manipulation, coerced sales and forced evictions". ]
Japan was a small island (California size) with 71 million people in 1945
They planned to settle significant Japanese populations in strategic parts of China after the Axis victory in World War II
And use the rest of the Chinese population they allowed to live as long term serfs/slaves/servants
(Italy had similar plans for Libya and their African possessions)
It's incredible to me this simple and logical point is lost on him.ATL Bear said:Everyone in a war has blood on their hands, but I don't typically blame combatants (either side) for battle decisions that might result in civilian casualties, even huge ones, if there is an objective, or things that might happen in the fog of war. Executing POWs and civilians in mass amounts after achieving the battle objectives rises to another level and is where war crimes come into play.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:I wouldn't call that an ass-kicking. Japan suffered massive losses, and the campaign only took a matter of months including liberating Manila.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:You should see the Chinese history books. And if you think the Bataan Death March was bogus, I'm not sure what to tell you.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:You really need to learn more about what Japan did in China, Korea and the Philippines, and I don't mean to American soldiers.KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Have read up on Japanese atrocities many times as the material is readily available.
Now try to find such similar studies on the US occupation of Japan.
The slaughter of almost 100,000 Okinawa civilians during our assault on that island.
The fire bombing of other Japanese cities ( after the Tokyo massacre) before the atomic bombs were dropped.
How Douglas MacArthur framed the Japanese general who kicked his ass in the Philippines, on bogus war crimes charges and HUNG the guy.
Now were we the 'good guys' in WW2 ……absolutely. Japan and Germany didn't give us many options but to fight.
But the winners always produce the vast majority of the history books. And book publishers want to make money.
And you don't make much money attempting to
sell books describing US atrocities to a US market .
The Bataan Death March was not blamed on General
Yamash ita . Otherwise known as the Tiger of Malaya . He was tried as a 'war criminal ' for the Japanese atrocities in Manila in 1945. Even though he was not in command of the Japanese troops in Manila .
His real 'crime' was embarrassing MacArthur' by holding on to much of Luzon until wars end even his troops were underfed and greatly outnumbered . Several US attorneys at the time said his execution was a huge miscarriage of American justice.
I thought you were referring to Gen. Homma's besting of MacArthur in the original invasion, which is considered one of the worst American military defeats in history, and resulted in the Bataan Death March.
But Yama****a had a lot of blood on his hands even if you excused him from the Manila Massacre. The Japanese occupiers were just brutal on the Filipino people and POWs.
Indeed the Japanese were brutal. Possibly more brutal than the Germans and equal to Russian brutality.
Easy to find the literature describing their butcheries.
But the Americans had a massive amount of blood on their hands as well . Much harder to find those details. It's out there, but it takes effort to dig it up.
Including the killing of thousands of British , Dutch and American prisoners of war as they were shipped from the Philippines to the Japanese home islands .
Through neutral channels the Japanese government announced their intentions to move these allied prisoners.
The US government agreed to give these ships safe passage. The US Navy agreed to give these Japanese ships clear sailing.
But somehow , someway US submarines sank several of these prison ships anyway .
And an estimated 8 thousand allied POW's drowned or were burned alive .
My friend, we simply disagree.Mothra said:So raping women and summarily executing prisoners is now the equivalent of targeted bombing of cities designed to end the war?KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Wow. Incredible. I leave this thread for a few days and you've completely lost your ability to employ reason and logic. You've lost your mind.
There is no 'moral compass' in any war.
Least of all when thousands of women and children are incinerated or slowly rot away from nuclear radiation.
No, I have not ' lost my mind '.
But you are losing a bit of your grace.
Just a message board. Nothing posted here matters in the slightest.
Coming from the guy that has an emotional break down here at least once a week.KaiBear said:My friend, we simply disagree.Mothra said:So raping women and summarily executing prisoners is now the equivalent of targeted bombing of cities designed to end the war?KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Wow. Incredible. I leave this thread for a few days and you've completely lost your ability to employ reason and logic. You've lost your mind.
There is no 'moral compass' in any war.
Least of all when thousands of women and children are incinerated or slowly rot away from nuclear radiation.
No, I have not ' lost my mind '.
But you are losing a bit of your grace.
Just a message board. Nothing posted here matters in the slightest.
LOLron.reagan said:Coming from the guy that has an emotional break down here at least once a week.KaiBear said:My friend, we simply disagree.Mothra said:So raping women and summarily executing prisoners is now the equivalent of targeted bombing of cities designed to end the war?KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Wow. Incredible. I leave this thread for a few days and you've completely lost your ability to employ reason and logic. You've lost your mind.
There is no 'moral compass' in any war.
Least of all when thousands of women and children are incinerated or slowly rot away from nuclear radiation.
No, I have not ' lost my mind '.
But you are losing a bit of your grace.
Just a message board. Nothing posted here matters in the slightest.
Amusing how you follow me around.
Then get all bent when you get put in the corner.
No surprise an 80 year old dementia patient doesn't understand how the internet worksKaiBear said:LOLron.reagan said:Coming from the guy that has an emotional break down here at least once a week.KaiBear said:My friend, we simply disagree.Mothra said:So raping women and summarily executing prisoners is now the equivalent of targeted bombing of cities designed to end the war?KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Wow. Incredible. I leave this thread for a few days and you've completely lost your ability to employ reason and logic. You've lost your mind.
There is no 'moral compass' in any war.
Least of all when thousands of women and children are incinerated or slowly rot away from nuclear radiation.
No, I have not ' lost my mind '.
But you are losing a bit of your grace.
Just a message board. Nothing posted here matters in the slightest.
Amusing how you follow me around.
Then get all bent when you get put in the corner.
Strange how you still believe childish internet sniping compensates for your mediocrity.
But be of good cheer.
Biden will take take if you.
But be of good cheer.
Biden will take take if you.
Why do you think Hunter Biden is writing KaiBear's posts here?ron.reagan said:Coming from the guy that has an emotional break down here at least once a week.KaiBear said:My friend, we simply disagree.Mothra said:So raping women and summarily executing prisoners is now the equivalent of targeted bombing of cities designed to end the war?KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Wow. Incredible. I leave this thread for a few days and you've completely lost your ability to employ reason and logic. You've lost your mind.
There is no 'moral compass' in any war.
Least of all when thousands of women and children are incinerated or slowly rot away from nuclear radiation.
No, I have not ' lost my mind '.
But you are losing a bit of your grace.
Just a message board. Nothing posted here matters in the slightest.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Mothra said:Sam is upset we stopped Japan from marching across Asia.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Also, there is no strategic value to the atrocities Japan committed - Mass rape, torture, mutilations and beheading of POWs and innocent civilians.
...
But there kind of was.
1. Intimidate and terrorize the Chinese (and other conquered peoples) into pacified and compliant slaves
2. Ethically cleanse the areas they intended to resettle with Japanese racial stock
[After the Japanese occupation (1931) and establishment of Manchukuo, huge crowds of Japanese agricultural pioneers settled in Manchuria. The first wave of the migration was a five-year trial emigration plan. Many had been young, land-poor farmers in Japan that were recruited by the Patriotic Youth Brigade to colonize new settlements in Manchukuo.[1] The Manchukuo government had seized great portions of these land through "price manipulation, coerced sales and forced evictions". ]
Japan was a small island (California size) with 71 million people in 1945
They planned to settle significant Japanese populations in strategic parts of China after the Axis victory in World War II
And use the rest of the Chinese population they allowed to live as long term serfs/slaves/servants
(Italy had similar plans for Libya and their African possessions)
I don't think that is fair..
But from a historical perspective it is interesting how Japan screwed itself by attacking the USA
And Nazi Germany screwed itself by attacking the USSR (and declaring war on the USA)
They were both in a very strong position in 1939 and had added lots of land to their perspective States
Saying we simply disagree is a cop out. Your positions are illogical, indefensible and morally bankrupt. You have indeed lost both your mind and your moral compass.KaiBear said:My friend, we simply disagree.Mothra said:So raping women and summarily executing prisoners is now the equivalent of targeted bombing of cities designed to end the war?KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Wow. Incredible. I leave this thread for a few days and you've completely lost your ability to employ reason and logic. You've lost your mind.
There is no 'moral compass' in any war.
Least of all when thousands of women and children are incinerated or slowly rot away from nuclear radiation.
No, I have not ' lost my mind '.
But you are losing a bit of your grace.
Just a message board. Nothing posted here matters in the slightest.
Just calling it like I see it. I misjudged you.
It's not unfair. It is his position. He and I argued this very issue years ago - before you were posting here. He even had the temerity to suggest we invited Pearl Harbor by refusing to supply the Japanese war machine with steel.Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:Sam is upset we stopped Japan from marching across Asia.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Also, there is no strategic value to the atrocities Japan committed - Mass rape, torture, mutilations and beheading of POWs and innocent civilians.
...
But there kind of was.
1. Intimidate and terrorize the Chinese (and other conquered peoples) into pacified and compliant slaves
2. Ethically cleanse the areas they intended to resettle with Japanese racial stock
[After the Japanese occupation (1931) and establishment of Manchukuo, huge crowds of Japanese agricultural pioneers settled in Manchuria. The first wave of the migration was a five-year trial emigration plan. Many had been young, land-poor farmers in Japan that were recruited by the Patriotic Youth Brigade to colonize new settlements in Manchukuo.[1] The Manchukuo government had seized great portions of these land through "price manipulation, coerced sales and forced evictions". ]
Japan was a small island (California size) with 71 million people in 1945
They planned to settle significant Japanese populations in strategic parts of China after the Axis victory in World War II
And use the rest of the Chinese population they allowed to live as long term serfs/slaves/servants
(Italy had similar plans for Libya and their African possessions)
I don't think that is fair..
Ask him if you don't believe me.
It was a conversation between them, as later recounted by McNamara. I'm not sure exactly what the rest of your post means. It almost sounds like you had so many rationalizations to unload that you forgot your words for a minute.ATL Bear said:I think you meant LeMay, and he was drawing the contrast to winners and losers. But the war crimes even cast upon Japan and Germany were not related to battle tactics even if the post war guilt did give a nod to it. It involved almost exclusively the treatment of POWs and citizens in occupied territories.Sam Lowry said:We were acting as war criminals, according to Robert McNamara. Not a man unfamiliar with the realities or the nature of the war.ATL Bear said:As it relates to WW2, this is a decidedly recent phenomena of revisionist historical perspectives from people far removed from the realities of warfare of that period and the nature of the conflict.KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
Read what I actually said about the UN numbers and let's go from there.Mothra said:Most of those figures I quoted come from the UN, the Red Cross, and Amnesty Int'l. Are you saying they're lying? If so, do you have proof?Sam Lowry said:You can rant and rave about exaggerated Russian atrocities, but anyone trying to provide a little perspective is creating "disproportion." Sounds like the double standard is all on your side.Mothra said:Who said I was fine with extrajudicial killings? Undoubtedly, there are bad actors on both sides. What's interesting to me, however, is both the disproportion and double standard, which you seem to be perfectly fine with. I mean, we literally have at a minimum 10,000 Ukrainian citizens killed, and I pointed out numerous instances of Russia targeting civilians, yet your response is, what about the targeted extra judicial killings of traitors? Hell, you don't say a word when another Russian oligarch or political opponent is imprisoned, poisoned or falls from a tall window, but now all of the sudden the Ukrainians are the bad guys for killing traitors. Yet, not a word from you when Putin does it?Sam Lowry said:1. There's no evidence that it was headed for a military target. To repeat with added emphasis this time: "Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.Mothra said:So, your evidence of these alleged civilian attacks is:Sam Lowry said:Quote:
MOSCOW, Aug 18 (Reuters) - A Ukrainian drone smashed into a building in central Moscow on Friday after Russian air defences shot it down, disrupting air traffic at all the civilian airports of the Russian capital, Russian officials said.
A Reuters witness who was in the area described hearing "a powerful explosion". Reuters images showed workers and emergency workers inspecting a damaged roof of a non-residential building which the drone hit.
Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/drone-attack-damaged-building-moscow-centre-2023-08-18/Quote:
BELGOROD, Russia, Feb 15 (Reuters) - Seven people including a one-year-old girl were killed in a Ukrainian missile attack on Thursday on the southern Russian city of Belgorod, regional governor Vyacheslav Gladkov said.
Eighteen other people, including four children, were hospitalised with injuries, with six in serious condition, Gladkov said, adding that four people, including two children, had already been released for outpatient treatment. He said the dead child's name was Valentina.
"We are all grieving with the families and friends of the victims," Gladkov wrote on Telegram. "I want to express my sincere condolences, realising that there are no words that can comfort this grief."
Later Gladkov said that another four injured, including two children, would be treated in Moscow.
Belgorod is the nearest major Russian city to the border with Ukraine, and the city and surrounding region have come under frequent attack since February 2022, when Russia sent its forces into Ukraine in what it calls a "special military operation".
Russian authorities said 25 civilians were killed in the largest of these attacks at the end of December.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/least-four-killed-ukrainian-missile-strike-belgorod-russian-media-2024-02-15/Quote:
THE OPERATION was a month in the making. Yevhen Yunakov, the mayor of Velykyi Burluk, in the Kharkiv region, had been identified as a collaborator with the Russians. "Caucasus", a special-forces commander, and a group of local officers were given the job. His men watched their target meticulously for days: when he shopped; when and where he moved; the extent of his security. Once they detonated their bomb, from a distance, they disappeared to safe-houses inside occupied territory. The group would return to Ukrainian-controlled territory only weeks later, after the town had been liberated. Yunakov's body has never been found.
Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself. They have been shot, blown up, hanged and even, on occasion, poisoned with doctored brandy. Ukraine is tight-lipped about its involvement in assassinations. But few doubt the increasingly competent signature of its security services.
Ukraine's leadership came under particular scrutiny in October, when the New York Times reported that the American government was blaming it for a car-bomb that killed Darya Dugina, daughter of Alexander Dugin, a nationalistic philosopher. That sharpened an already-lively internal debate within Ukrainian intelligence. It was unclear if Ms Dugina was meant to die; some reports suggest she had switched cars with her father.
But a subsequent string of operations targeting mid-level propagandists showed a trend that few of the insiders interviewed for this article were happy with. "These are marginal figures," says one source in SBU counter-intelligence. "It makes me uncomfortable." The former SBU fifth-directorate officer suggests the operations were designed to impress the president rather than bring victory any closer.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/09/05/inside-ukraines-assassination-programme
1) A Ukrainian drone most likely headed for a military target is shot down by the Russians and smashes into a building, killing nobody;
2) A Ukrainian missile, whose destination is unknown, kills 7 in a border city; and
3) Ukrainians may be targeting traitors in clinical operations in Ukrainian occupied territory.
Really? That's all you have?
And you have no response to the numerous actual human rights atrocities I referenced above?
Why am I not surprised?
2. It most likely had no specific destination. More on that later.
3. Not surprised that you support extrajudicial killing of noncombatants by Ukraine. Like you said, I guess it all depends on the actor. It is disturbing that you consider "mid-level propaganda" and "nationalistic philosophy" to be forms of treason. But that's not even the most glaring flaw in your argument. Again with emphasis: "Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself." Alexander Dugin was Russian, not Ukrainian. So no matter what you think of his opinions, he was no traitor to Ukraine. Much less his daughter, who was murdered on her way to an art festival outside Moscow.
But that's all just fine with you.
The only person fine with the double standard is yourself. You're ok with Russia invading and killing civilians. You are ok with a disproportionate number of Ukrainian civilian deaths. You won't say a word against Putin because of it.
The double standard is you're pointing to a few targeted killings of traitors and remaining silent about thousands of Ukrainian civilian deaths, including women and children. But ok.
Ridiculous.Mothra said:Sam is upset we stopped Japan from marching across Asia.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Also, there is no strategic value to the atrocities Japan committed - Mass rape, torture, mutilations and beheading of POWs and innocent civilians.
...
But there kind of was.
1. Intimidate and terrorize the Chinese (and other conquered peoples) into pacified and compliant slaves
2. Ethically cleanse the areas they intended to resettle with Japanese racial stock
[After the Japanese occupation (1931) and establishment of Manchukuo, huge crowds of Japanese agricultural pioneers settled in Manchuria. The first wave of the migration was a five-year trial emigration plan. Many had been young, land-poor farmers in Japan that were recruited by the Patriotic Youth Brigade to colonize new settlements in Manchukuo.[1] The Manchukuo government had seized great portions of these land through "price manipulation, coerced sales and forced evictions". ]
Japan was a small island (California size) with 71 million people in 1945
They planned to settle significant Japanese populations in strategic parts of China after the Axis victory in World War II
And use the rest of the Chinese population they allowed to live as long term serfs/slaves/servants
(Italy had similar plans for Libya and their African possessions)
Not reading all of your posts again. If you feel I missed something, feel free to point it out, and let's go from there.Sam Lowry said:Read what I actually said about the UN numbers and let's go from there.Mothra said:Most of those figures I quoted come from the UN, the Red Cross, and Amnesty Int'l. Are you saying they're lying? If so, do you have proof?Sam Lowry said:You can rant and rave about exaggerated Russian atrocities, but anyone trying to provide a little perspective is creating "disproportion." Sounds like the double standard is all on your side.Mothra said:Who said I was fine with extrajudicial killings? Undoubtedly, there are bad actors on both sides. What's interesting to me, however, is both the disproportion and double standard, which you seem to be perfectly fine with. I mean, we literally have at a minimum 10,000 Ukrainian citizens killed, and I pointed out numerous instances of Russia targeting civilians, yet your response is, what about the targeted extra judicial killings of traitors? Hell, you don't say a word when another Russian oligarch or political opponent is imprisoned, poisoned or falls from a tall window, but now all of the sudden the Ukrainians are the bad guys for killing traitors. Yet, not a word from you when Putin does it?Sam Lowry said:1. There's no evidence that it was headed for a military target. To repeat with added emphasis this time: "Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.Mothra said:So, your evidence of these alleged civilian attacks is:Sam Lowry said:Quote:
MOSCOW, Aug 18 (Reuters) - A Ukrainian drone smashed into a building in central Moscow on Friday after Russian air defences shot it down, disrupting air traffic at all the civilian airports of the Russian capital, Russian officials said.
A Reuters witness who was in the area described hearing "a powerful explosion". Reuters images showed workers and emergency workers inspecting a damaged roof of a non-residential building which the drone hit.
Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/drone-attack-damaged-building-moscow-centre-2023-08-18/Quote:
BELGOROD, Russia, Feb 15 (Reuters) - Seven people including a one-year-old girl were killed in a Ukrainian missile attack on Thursday on the southern Russian city of Belgorod, regional governor Vyacheslav Gladkov said.
Eighteen other people, including four children, were hospitalised with injuries, with six in serious condition, Gladkov said, adding that four people, including two children, had already been released for outpatient treatment. He said the dead child's name was Valentina.
"We are all grieving with the families and friends of the victims," Gladkov wrote on Telegram. "I want to express my sincere condolences, realising that there are no words that can comfort this grief."
Later Gladkov said that another four injured, including two children, would be treated in Moscow.
Belgorod is the nearest major Russian city to the border with Ukraine, and the city and surrounding region have come under frequent attack since February 2022, when Russia sent its forces into Ukraine in what it calls a "special military operation".
Russian authorities said 25 civilians were killed in the largest of these attacks at the end of December.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/least-four-killed-ukrainian-missile-strike-belgorod-russian-media-2024-02-15/Quote:
THE OPERATION was a month in the making. Yevhen Yunakov, the mayor of Velykyi Burluk, in the Kharkiv region, had been identified as a collaborator with the Russians. "Caucasus", a special-forces commander, and a group of local officers were given the job. His men watched their target meticulously for days: when he shopped; when and where he moved; the extent of his security. Once they detonated their bomb, from a distance, they disappeared to safe-houses inside occupied territory. The group would return to Ukrainian-controlled territory only weeks later, after the town had been liberated. Yunakov's body has never been found.
Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself. They have been shot, blown up, hanged and even, on occasion, poisoned with doctored brandy. Ukraine is tight-lipped about its involvement in assassinations. But few doubt the increasingly competent signature of its security services.
Ukraine's leadership came under particular scrutiny in October, when the New York Times reported that the American government was blaming it for a car-bomb that killed Darya Dugina, daughter of Alexander Dugin, a nationalistic philosopher. That sharpened an already-lively internal debate within Ukrainian intelligence. It was unclear if Ms Dugina was meant to die; some reports suggest she had switched cars with her father.
But a subsequent string of operations targeting mid-level propagandists showed a trend that few of the insiders interviewed for this article were happy with. "These are marginal figures," says one source in SBU counter-intelligence. "It makes me uncomfortable." The former SBU fifth-directorate officer suggests the operations were designed to impress the president rather than bring victory any closer.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/09/05/inside-ukraines-assassination-programme
1) A Ukrainian drone most likely headed for a military target is shot down by the Russians and smashes into a building, killing nobody;
2) A Ukrainian missile, whose destination is unknown, kills 7 in a border city; and
3) Ukrainians may be targeting traitors in clinical operations in Ukrainian occupied territory.
Really? That's all you have?
And you have no response to the numerous actual human rights atrocities I referenced above?
Why am I not surprised?
2. It most likely had no specific destination. More on that later.
3. Not surprised that you support extrajudicial killing of noncombatants by Ukraine. Like you said, I guess it all depends on the actor. It is disturbing that you consider "mid-level propaganda" and "nationalistic philosophy" to be forms of treason. But that's not even the most glaring flaw in your argument. Again with emphasis: "Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself." Alexander Dugin was Russian, not Ukrainian. So no matter what you think of his opinions, he was no traitor to Ukraine. Much less his daughter, who was murdered on her way to an art festival outside Moscow.
But that's all just fine with you.
The only person fine with the double standard is yourself. You're ok with Russia invading and killing civilians. You are ok with a disproportionate number of Ukrainian civilian deaths. You won't say a word against Putin because of it.
The double standard is you're pointing to a few targeted killings of traitors and remaining silent about thousands of Ukrainian civilian deaths, including women and children. But ok.
BTW, I note that you are still silent about the Ukrainian deaths...
If you feel I misrepresented your position in the past, or have changed your opinion, I suppose you can say what it is.Sam Lowry said:Ridiculous.Mothra said:Sam is upset we stopped Japan from marching across Asia.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Also, there is no strategic value to the atrocities Japan committed - Mass rape, torture, mutilations and beheading of POWs and innocent civilians.
...
But there kind of was.
1. Intimidate and terrorize the Chinese (and other conquered peoples) into pacified and compliant slaves
2. Ethically cleanse the areas they intended to resettle with Japanese racial stock
[After the Japanese occupation (1931) and establishment of Manchukuo, huge crowds of Japanese agricultural pioneers settled in Manchuria. The first wave of the migration was a five-year trial emigration plan. Many had been young, land-poor farmers in Japan that were recruited by the Patriotic Youth Brigade to colonize new settlements in Manchukuo.[1] The Manchukuo government had seized great portions of these land through "price manipulation, coerced sales and forced evictions". ]
Japan was a small island (California size) with 71 million people in 1945
They planned to settle significant Japanese populations in strategic parts of China after the Axis victory in World War II
And use the rest of the Chinese population they allowed to live as long term serfs/slaves/servants
(Italy had similar plans for Libya and their African possessions)
Unless of course you want to be purposely vague as always.
Have done that too many times.Mothra said:Not reading all of your posts again. If you feel I missed something, feel free to point it out, and let's go from there.Sam Lowry said:Read what I actually said about the UN numbers and let's go from there.Mothra said:Most of those figures I quoted come from the UN, the Red Cross, and Amnesty Int'l. Are you saying they're lying? If so, do you have proof?Sam Lowry said:You can rant and rave about exaggerated Russian atrocities, but anyone trying to provide a little perspective is creating "disproportion." Sounds like the double standard is all on your side.Mothra said:Who said I was fine with extrajudicial killings? Undoubtedly, there are bad actors on both sides. What's interesting to me, however, is both the disproportion and double standard, which you seem to be perfectly fine with. I mean, we literally have at a minimum 10,000 Ukrainian citizens killed, and I pointed out numerous instances of Russia targeting civilians, yet your response is, what about the targeted extra judicial killings of traitors? Hell, you don't say a word when another Russian oligarch or political opponent is imprisoned, poisoned or falls from a tall window, but now all of the sudden the Ukrainians are the bad guys for killing traitors. Yet, not a word from you when Putin does it?Sam Lowry said:1. There's no evidence that it was headed for a military target. To repeat with added emphasis this time: "Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.Mothra said:So, your evidence of these alleged civilian attacks is:Sam Lowry said:Quote:
MOSCOW, Aug 18 (Reuters) - A Ukrainian drone smashed into a building in central Moscow on Friday after Russian air defences shot it down, disrupting air traffic at all the civilian airports of the Russian capital, Russian officials said.
A Reuters witness who was in the area described hearing "a powerful explosion". Reuters images showed workers and emergency workers inspecting a damaged roof of a non-residential building which the drone hit.
Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/drone-attack-damaged-building-moscow-centre-2023-08-18/Quote:
BELGOROD, Russia, Feb 15 (Reuters) - Seven people including a one-year-old girl were killed in a Ukrainian missile attack on Thursday on the southern Russian city of Belgorod, regional governor Vyacheslav Gladkov said.
Eighteen other people, including four children, were hospitalised with injuries, with six in serious condition, Gladkov said, adding that four people, including two children, had already been released for outpatient treatment. He said the dead child's name was Valentina.
"We are all grieving with the families and friends of the victims," Gladkov wrote on Telegram. "I want to express my sincere condolences, realising that there are no words that can comfort this grief."
Later Gladkov said that another four injured, including two children, would be treated in Moscow.
Belgorod is the nearest major Russian city to the border with Ukraine, and the city and surrounding region have come under frequent attack since February 2022, when Russia sent its forces into Ukraine in what it calls a "special military operation".
Russian authorities said 25 civilians were killed in the largest of these attacks at the end of December.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/least-four-killed-ukrainian-missile-strike-belgorod-russian-media-2024-02-15/Quote:
THE OPERATION was a month in the making. Yevhen Yunakov, the mayor of Velykyi Burluk, in the Kharkiv region, had been identified as a collaborator with the Russians. "Caucasus", a special-forces commander, and a group of local officers were given the job. His men watched their target meticulously for days: when he shopped; when and where he moved; the extent of his security. Once they detonated their bomb, from a distance, they disappeared to safe-houses inside occupied territory. The group would return to Ukrainian-controlled territory only weeks later, after the town had been liberated. Yunakov's body has never been found.
Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself. They have been shot, blown up, hanged and even, on occasion, poisoned with doctored brandy. Ukraine is tight-lipped about its involvement in assassinations. But few doubt the increasingly competent signature of its security services.
Ukraine's leadership came under particular scrutiny in October, when the New York Times reported that the American government was blaming it for a car-bomb that killed Darya Dugina, daughter of Alexander Dugin, a nationalistic philosopher. That sharpened an already-lively internal debate within Ukrainian intelligence. It was unclear if Ms Dugina was meant to die; some reports suggest she had switched cars with her father.
But a subsequent string of operations targeting mid-level propagandists showed a trend that few of the insiders interviewed for this article were happy with. "These are marginal figures," says one source in SBU counter-intelligence. "It makes me uncomfortable." The former SBU fifth-directorate officer suggests the operations were designed to impress the president rather than bring victory any closer.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/09/05/inside-ukraines-assassination-programme
1) A Ukrainian drone most likely headed for a military target is shot down by the Russians and smashes into a building, killing nobody;
2) A Ukrainian missile, whose destination is unknown, kills 7 in a border city; and
3) Ukrainians may be targeting traitors in clinical operations in Ukrainian occupied territory.
Really? That's all you have?
And you have no response to the numerous actual human rights atrocities I referenced above?
Why am I not surprised?
2. It most likely had no specific destination. More on that later.
3. Not surprised that you support extrajudicial killing of noncombatants by Ukraine. Like you said, I guess it all depends on the actor. It is disturbing that you consider "mid-level propaganda" and "nationalistic philosophy" to be forms of treason. But that's not even the most glaring flaw in your argument. Again with emphasis: "Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself." Alexander Dugin was Russian, not Ukrainian. So no matter what you think of his opinions, he was no traitor to Ukraine. Much less his daughter, who was murdered on her way to an art festival outside Moscow.
But that's all just fine with you.
The only person fine with the double standard is yourself. You're ok with Russia invading and killing civilians. You are ok with a disproportionate number of Ukrainian civilian deaths. You won't say a word against Putin because of it.
The double standard is you're pointing to a few targeted killings of traitors and remaining silent about thousands of Ukrainian civilian deaths, including women and children. But ok.
You and ATL are trotting out new excuses and double standards with almost every post now. Just in the few days I've been away, we've heard that America is different because:
- Executing POWs and civilians in captivity "rises to another level" (as opposed to incinerating them in their homes).
- Our intentional killing of innocents was tactical in nature.
- We mostly murdered people in their own territory, not in US- occupied territory.
- We stopped short of deliberate genocide.
- We were trying to end the war (as if Japan wasn't trying to do the same).
- Our fire-bombing campaign was "targeted" (this one is just plain funny).
I of course understand why you choose to decline the invitation. When you got nothin, you got nothin.Sam Lowry said:Have done that too many times.Mothra said:Not reading all of your posts again. If you feel I missed something, feel free to point it out, and let's go from there.Sam Lowry said:Read what I actually said about the UN numbers and let's go from there.Mothra said:Most of those figures I quoted come from the UN, the Red Cross, and Amnesty Int'l. Are you saying they're lying? If so, do you have proof?Sam Lowry said:You can rant and rave about exaggerated Russian atrocities, but anyone trying to provide a little perspective is creating "disproportion." Sounds like the double standard is all on your side.Mothra said:Who said I was fine with extrajudicial killings? Undoubtedly, there are bad actors on both sides. What's interesting to me, however, is both the disproportion and double standard, which you seem to be perfectly fine with. I mean, we literally have at a minimum 10,000 Ukrainian citizens killed, and I pointed out numerous instances of Russia targeting civilians, yet your response is, what about the targeted extra judicial killings of traitors? Hell, you don't say a word when another Russian oligarch or political opponent is imprisoned, poisoned or falls from a tall window, but now all of the sudden the Ukrainians are the bad guys for killing traitors. Yet, not a word from you when Putin does it?Sam Lowry said:1. There's no evidence that it was headed for a military target. To repeat with added emphasis this time: "Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.Mothra said:So, your evidence of these alleged civilian attacks is:Sam Lowry said:Quote:
MOSCOW, Aug 18 (Reuters) - A Ukrainian drone smashed into a building in central Moscow on Friday after Russian air defences shot it down, disrupting air traffic at all the civilian airports of the Russian capital, Russian officials said.
A Reuters witness who was in the area described hearing "a powerful explosion". Reuters images showed workers and emergency workers inspecting a damaged roof of a non-residential building which the drone hit.
Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/drone-attack-damaged-building-moscow-centre-2023-08-18/Quote:
BELGOROD, Russia, Feb 15 (Reuters) - Seven people including a one-year-old girl were killed in a Ukrainian missile attack on Thursday on the southern Russian city of Belgorod, regional governor Vyacheslav Gladkov said.
Eighteen other people, including four children, were hospitalised with injuries, with six in serious condition, Gladkov said, adding that four people, including two children, had already been released for outpatient treatment. He said the dead child's name was Valentina.
"We are all grieving with the families and friends of the victims," Gladkov wrote on Telegram. "I want to express my sincere condolences, realising that there are no words that can comfort this grief."
Later Gladkov said that another four injured, including two children, would be treated in Moscow.
Belgorod is the nearest major Russian city to the border with Ukraine, and the city and surrounding region have come under frequent attack since February 2022, when Russia sent its forces into Ukraine in what it calls a "special military operation".
Russian authorities said 25 civilians were killed in the largest of these attacks at the end of December.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/least-four-killed-ukrainian-missile-strike-belgorod-russian-media-2024-02-15/Quote:
THE OPERATION was a month in the making. Yevhen Yunakov, the mayor of Velykyi Burluk, in the Kharkiv region, had been identified as a collaborator with the Russians. "Caucasus", a special-forces commander, and a group of local officers were given the job. His men watched their target meticulously for days: when he shopped; when and where he moved; the extent of his security. Once they detonated their bomb, from a distance, they disappeared to safe-houses inside occupied territory. The group would return to Ukrainian-controlled territory only weeks later, after the town had been liberated. Yunakov's body has never been found.
Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself. They have been shot, blown up, hanged and even, on occasion, poisoned with doctored brandy. Ukraine is tight-lipped about its involvement in assassinations. But few doubt the increasingly competent signature of its security services.
Ukraine's leadership came under particular scrutiny in October, when the New York Times reported that the American government was blaming it for a car-bomb that killed Darya Dugina, daughter of Alexander Dugin, a nationalistic philosopher. That sharpened an already-lively internal debate within Ukrainian intelligence. It was unclear if Ms Dugina was meant to die; some reports suggest she had switched cars with her father.
But a subsequent string of operations targeting mid-level propagandists showed a trend that few of the insiders interviewed for this article were happy with. "These are marginal figures," says one source in SBU counter-intelligence. "It makes me uncomfortable." The former SBU fifth-directorate officer suggests the operations were designed to impress the president rather than bring victory any closer.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/09/05/inside-ukraines-assassination-programme
1) A Ukrainian drone most likely headed for a military target is shot down by the Russians and smashes into a building, killing nobody;
2) A Ukrainian missile, whose destination is unknown, kills 7 in a border city; and
3) Ukrainians may be targeting traitors in clinical operations in Ukrainian occupied territory.
Really? That's all you have?
And you have no response to the numerous actual human rights atrocities I referenced above?
Why am I not surprised?
2. It most likely had no specific destination. More on that later.
3. Not surprised that you support extrajudicial killing of noncombatants by Ukraine. Like you said, I guess it all depends on the actor. It is disturbing that you consider "mid-level propaganda" and "nationalistic philosophy" to be forms of treason. But that's not even the most glaring flaw in your argument. Again with emphasis: "Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself." Alexander Dugin was Russian, not Ukrainian. So no matter what you think of his opinions, he was no traitor to Ukraine. Much less his daughter, who was murdered on her way to an art festival outside Moscow.
But that's all just fine with you.
The only person fine with the double standard is yourself. You're ok with Russia invading and killing civilians. You are ok with a disproportionate number of Ukrainian civilian deaths. You won't say a word against Putin because of it.
The double standard is you're pointing to a few targeted killings of traitors and remaining silent about thousands of Ukrainian civilian deaths, including women and children. But ok.
This post is incredibly Putinesque:
No concern for the Fascist character of the Nazi and Konoe regimes, nor consideration that Japan's foreign policy from the mid-1930's on was conquest;
Equivocation of Japanese and American purposes and goals, as if morally equivalent;
Complete silence regarding policies of rape and torture as control methodologies ...
et cetera.
No concern for the Fascist character of the Nazi and Konoe regimes, nor consideration that Japan's foreign policy from the mid-1930's on was conquest;
Equivocation of Japanese and American purposes and goals, as if morally equivalent;
Complete silence regarding policies of rape and torture as control methodologies ...
et cetera.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
And we're talking about a policy of decimating Japan's population in order to break their will. There was no tactical reason for it.Oldbear83 said:
This post is incredibly Putinesque:
No concern for the Fascist character of the Nazi and Konoe regimes, nor consideration that Japan's foreign policy from the mid-1930's on was conquest;
Equivocation of Japanese and American purposes and goals, as if morally equivalent;
Complete silence regarding policies of rape and torture as control methodologies ...
et cetera.
What you call moral equivalency is really just moral consistency. That's what some of you can't and won't abide.
I appreciate the attempts at spinning our comments. I suspect you're smart enough to understand nobody here has condoned the killing of civilians, and at this point are simply purposely mischaracterizing positions in an attempt to win your argument.Sam Lowry said:Mothra said:Not reading all of your posts again. If you feel I missed something, feel free to point it out, and let's go from there.Sam Lowry said:Read what I actually said about the UN numbers and let's go from there.Mothra said:Most of those figures I quoted come from the UN, the Red Cross, and Amnesty Int'l. Are you saying they're lying? If so, do you have proof?Sam Lowry said:You can rant and rave about exaggerated Russian atrocities, but anyone trying to provide a little perspective is creating "disproportion." Sounds like the double standard is all on your side.Mothra said:Who said I was fine with extrajudicial killings? Undoubtedly, there are bad actors on both sides. What's interesting to me, however, is both the disproportion and double standard, which you seem to be perfectly fine with. I mean, we literally have at a minimum 10,000 Ukrainian citizens killed, and I pointed out numerous instances of Russia targeting civilians, yet your response is, what about the targeted extra judicial killings of traitors? Hell, you don't say a word when another Russian oligarch or political opponent is imprisoned, poisoned or falls from a tall window, but now all of the sudden the Ukrainians are the bad guys for killing traitors. Yet, not a word from you when Putin does it?Sam Lowry said:1. There's no evidence that it was headed for a military target. To repeat with added emphasis this time: "Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.Mothra said:So, your evidence of these alleged civilian attacks is:Sam Lowry said:Quote:
MOSCOW, Aug 18 (Reuters) - A Ukrainian drone smashed into a building in central Moscow on Friday after Russian air defences shot it down, disrupting air traffic at all the civilian airports of the Russian capital, Russian officials said.
A Reuters witness who was in the area described hearing "a powerful explosion". Reuters images showed workers and emergency workers inspecting a damaged roof of a non-residential building which the drone hit.
Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/drone-attack-damaged-building-moscow-centre-2023-08-18/Quote:
BELGOROD, Russia, Feb 15 (Reuters) - Seven people including a one-year-old girl were killed in a Ukrainian missile attack on Thursday on the southern Russian city of Belgorod, regional governor Vyacheslav Gladkov said.
Eighteen other people, including four children, were hospitalised with injuries, with six in serious condition, Gladkov said, adding that four people, including two children, had already been released for outpatient treatment. He said the dead child's name was Valentina.
"We are all grieving with the families and friends of the victims," Gladkov wrote on Telegram. "I want to express my sincere condolences, realising that there are no words that can comfort this grief."
Later Gladkov said that another four injured, including two children, would be treated in Moscow.
Belgorod is the nearest major Russian city to the border with Ukraine, and the city and surrounding region have come under frequent attack since February 2022, when Russia sent its forces into Ukraine in what it calls a "special military operation".
Russian authorities said 25 civilians were killed in the largest of these attacks at the end of December.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/least-four-killed-ukrainian-missile-strike-belgorod-russian-media-2024-02-15/Quote:
THE OPERATION was a month in the making. Yevhen Yunakov, the mayor of Velykyi Burluk, in the Kharkiv region, had been identified as a collaborator with the Russians. "Caucasus", a special-forces commander, and a group of local officers were given the job. His men watched their target meticulously for days: when he shopped; when and where he moved; the extent of his security. Once they detonated their bomb, from a distance, they disappeared to safe-houses inside occupied territory. The group would return to Ukrainian-controlled territory only weeks later, after the town had been liberated. Yunakov's body has never been found.
Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself. They have been shot, blown up, hanged and even, on occasion, poisoned with doctored brandy. Ukraine is tight-lipped about its involvement in assassinations. But few doubt the increasingly competent signature of its security services.
Ukraine's leadership came under particular scrutiny in October, when the New York Times reported that the American government was blaming it for a car-bomb that killed Darya Dugina, daughter of Alexander Dugin, a nationalistic philosopher. That sharpened an already-lively internal debate within Ukrainian intelligence. It was unclear if Ms Dugina was meant to die; some reports suggest she had switched cars with her father.
But a subsequent string of operations targeting mid-level propagandists showed a trend that few of the insiders interviewed for this article were happy with. "These are marginal figures," says one source in SBU counter-intelligence. "It makes me uncomfortable." The former SBU fifth-directorate officer suggests the operations were designed to impress the president rather than bring victory any closer.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/09/05/inside-ukraines-assassination-programme
1) A Ukrainian drone most likely headed for a military target is shot down by the Russians and smashes into a building, killing nobody;
2) A Ukrainian missile, whose destination is unknown, kills 7 in a border city; and
3) Ukrainians may be targeting traitors in clinical operations in Ukrainian occupied territory.
Really? That's all you have?
And you have no response to the numerous actual human rights atrocities I referenced above?
Why am I not surprised?
2. It most likely had no specific destination. More on that later.
3. Not surprised that you support extrajudicial killing of noncombatants by Ukraine. Like you said, I guess it all depends on the actor. It is disturbing that you consider "mid-level propaganda" and "nationalistic philosophy" to be forms of treason. But that's not even the most glaring flaw in your argument. Again with emphasis: "Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself." Alexander Dugin was Russian, not Ukrainian. So no matter what you think of his opinions, he was no traitor to Ukraine. Much less his daughter, who was murdered on her way to an art festival outside Moscow.
But that's all just fine with you.
The only person fine with the double standard is yourself. You're ok with Russia invading and killing civilians. You are ok with a disproportionate number of Ukrainian civilian deaths. You won't say a word against Putin because of it.
The double standard is you're pointing to a few targeted killings of traitors and remaining silent about thousands of Ukrainian civilian deaths, including women and children. But ok.
You and ATL are trotting out new excuses and double standards with almost every post now. Just in the few days I've been away, we've heard that America is different because:
- Executing POWs and civilians in captivity "rises to another level" (as opposed to incinerating them in their homes).
- Our intentional killing of innocents was tactical in nature.
- We mostly murdered people in their own territory, not in US- occupied territory.
- We stopped short of deliberate genocide.
- We were trying to end the war (as if Japan wasn't trying to do the same).
- Our fire-bombing campaign was "targeted" (this one is just plain funny).
If you don't see the difference between WWII bombing campaigns designed to end the war vs. raping civilians and summarily executing POWs, perhaps I've given you too much credit over the years. As ATL pointed out, only one was designed to win the war. This seems pretty elementary, and something reasonable people should be able to agree on (the key word being "reasonable").
As for the claim that bombing Japan was stopping just short of genocide, that is an interesting belief. I am curious if you define "genocide" differently than how most define it. Was the aim to destroy and eradicate the Japanese people or win a world war? If it is the latter, that does not even come close to the line of genocide. Hopefully, we can agree that Hitler's extermination of the Jews wasn't an an attempt to win the war, but instead to eradicate the Jewish people. But again, with you, I try not to make assumptions.
Mothra said:Saying we simply disagree is a cop out. Your positions are illogical, indefensible and morally bankrupt. You have indeed lost both your mind and your moral compass.KaiBear said:My friend, we simply disagree.Mothra said:So raping women and summarily executing prisoners is now the equivalent of targeted bombing of cities designed to end the war?KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Wow. Incredible. I leave this thread for a few days and you've completely lost your ability to employ reason and logic. You've lost your mind.
There is no 'moral compass' in any war.
Least of all when thousands of women and children are incinerated or slowly rot away from nuclear radiation.
No, I have not ' lost my mind '.
But you are losing a bit of your grace.
Just a message board. Nothing posted here matters in the slightest.
Just calling it like I see it. I misjudged you.
I forgive you for your reckless insults and will not respond in kind .
If the past is any indication you will resume tolerating my character flaws when we agree on a future topic.
As we usually do.
Peace Be With You
Intentional killing of civilians is intentional killing of civilians. That is elementary under both Just War Theory and international law. I know it makes you feel good to pretend that Japan's crimes were completely gratuitous while ours were in the service of a noble cause. The problem is, even if that were true, it wouldn't change the analysis. A crime is still a crime.Mothra said:I appreciate the attempts at spinning our comments. I suspect you're smart enough to understand nobody here has condoned the killing of civilians, and at this point are simply purposely mischaracterizing positions in an attempt to win your argument.Sam Lowry said:Mothra said:Not reading all of your posts again. If you feel I missed something, feel free to point it out, and let's go from there.Sam Lowry said:Read what I actually said about the UN numbers and let's go from there.Mothra said:Most of those figures I quoted come from the UN, the Red Cross, and Amnesty Int'l. Are you saying they're lying? If so, do you have proof?Sam Lowry said:You can rant and rave about exaggerated Russian atrocities, but anyone trying to provide a little perspective is creating "disproportion." Sounds like the double standard is all on your side.Mothra said:Who said I was fine with extrajudicial killings? Undoubtedly, there are bad actors on both sides. What's interesting to me, however, is both the disproportion and double standard, which you seem to be perfectly fine with. I mean, we literally have at a minimum 10,000 Ukrainian citizens killed, and I pointed out numerous instances of Russia targeting civilians, yet your response is, what about the targeted extra judicial killings of traitors? Hell, you don't say a word when another Russian oligarch or political opponent is imprisoned, poisoned or falls from a tall window, but now all of the sudden the Ukrainians are the bad guys for killing traitors. Yet, not a word from you when Putin does it?Sam Lowry said:1. There's no evidence that it was headed for a military target. To repeat with added emphasis this time: "Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.Mothra said:So, your evidence of these alleged civilian attacks is:Sam Lowry said:Quote:
MOSCOW, Aug 18 (Reuters) - A Ukrainian drone smashed into a building in central Moscow on Friday after Russian air defences shot it down, disrupting air traffic at all the civilian airports of the Russian capital, Russian officials said.
A Reuters witness who was in the area described hearing "a powerful explosion". Reuters images showed workers and emergency workers inspecting a damaged roof of a non-residential building which the drone hit.
Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/drone-attack-damaged-building-moscow-centre-2023-08-18/Quote:
BELGOROD, Russia, Feb 15 (Reuters) - Seven people including a one-year-old girl were killed in a Ukrainian missile attack on Thursday on the southern Russian city of Belgorod, regional governor Vyacheslav Gladkov said.
Eighteen other people, including four children, were hospitalised with injuries, with six in serious condition, Gladkov said, adding that four people, including two children, had already been released for outpatient treatment. He said the dead child's name was Valentina.
"We are all grieving with the families and friends of the victims," Gladkov wrote on Telegram. "I want to express my sincere condolences, realising that there are no words that can comfort this grief."
Later Gladkov said that another four injured, including two children, would be treated in Moscow.
Belgorod is the nearest major Russian city to the border with Ukraine, and the city and surrounding region have come under frequent attack since February 2022, when Russia sent its forces into Ukraine in what it calls a "special military operation".
Russian authorities said 25 civilians were killed in the largest of these attacks at the end of December.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/least-four-killed-ukrainian-missile-strike-belgorod-russian-media-2024-02-15/Quote:
THE OPERATION was a month in the making. Yevhen Yunakov, the mayor of Velykyi Burluk, in the Kharkiv region, had been identified as a collaborator with the Russians. "Caucasus", a special-forces commander, and a group of local officers were given the job. His men watched their target meticulously for days: when he shopped; when and where he moved; the extent of his security. Once they detonated their bomb, from a distance, they disappeared to safe-houses inside occupied territory. The group would return to Ukrainian-controlled territory only weeks later, after the town had been liberated. Yunakov's body has never been found.
Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself. They have been shot, blown up, hanged and even, on occasion, poisoned with doctored brandy. Ukraine is tight-lipped about its involvement in assassinations. But few doubt the increasingly competent signature of its security services.
Ukraine's leadership came under particular scrutiny in October, when the New York Times reported that the American government was blaming it for a car-bomb that killed Darya Dugina, daughter of Alexander Dugin, a nationalistic philosopher. That sharpened an already-lively internal debate within Ukrainian intelligence. It was unclear if Ms Dugina was meant to die; some reports suggest she had switched cars with her father.
But a subsequent string of operations targeting mid-level propagandists showed a trend that few of the insiders interviewed for this article were happy with. "These are marginal figures," says one source in SBU counter-intelligence. "It makes me uncomfortable." The former SBU fifth-directorate officer suggests the operations were designed to impress the president rather than bring victory any closer.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/09/05/inside-ukraines-assassination-programme
1) A Ukrainian drone most likely headed for a military target is shot down by the Russians and smashes into a building, killing nobody;
2) A Ukrainian missile, whose destination is unknown, kills 7 in a border city; and
3) Ukrainians may be targeting traitors in clinical operations in Ukrainian occupied territory.
Really? That's all you have?
And you have no response to the numerous actual human rights atrocities I referenced above?
Why am I not surprised?
2. It most likely had no specific destination. More on that later.
3. Not surprised that you support extrajudicial killing of noncombatants by Ukraine. Like you said, I guess it all depends on the actor. It is disturbing that you consider "mid-level propaganda" and "nationalistic philosophy" to be forms of treason. But that's not even the most glaring flaw in your argument. Again with emphasis: "Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself." Alexander Dugin was Russian, not Ukrainian. So no matter what you think of his opinions, he was no traitor to Ukraine. Much less his daughter, who was murdered on her way to an art festival outside Moscow.
But that's all just fine with you.
The only person fine with the double standard is yourself. You're ok with Russia invading and killing civilians. You are ok with a disproportionate number of Ukrainian civilian deaths. You won't say a word against Putin because of it.
The double standard is you're pointing to a few targeted killings of traitors and remaining silent about thousands of Ukrainian civilian deaths, including women and children. But ok.
You and ATL are trotting out new excuses and double standards with almost every post now. Just in the few days I've been away, we've heard that America is different because:
- Executing POWs and civilians in captivity "rises to another level" (as opposed to incinerating them in their homes).
- Our intentional killing of innocents was tactical in nature.
- We mostly murdered people in their own territory, not in US- occupied territory.
- We stopped short of deliberate genocide.
- We were trying to end the war (as if Japan wasn't trying to do the same).
- Our fire-bombing campaign was "targeted" (this one is just plain funny).
If you don't see the difference between WWII bombing campaigns designed to end the war vs. raping civilians and summarily executing POWs, perhaps I've given you too much credit over the years. As ATL pointed out, only one was designed to win the war. This seems pretty elementary, and something reasonable people should be able to agree on (the key word being "reasonable").
As for the claim that bombing Japan was stopping just short of genocide, that is an interesting belief. I am curious if you define "genocide" differently than how most define it. Was the aim to destroy and eradicate the Japanese people or win a world war? If it is the latter, that does not even come close to the line of genocide. Hopefully, we can agree that Hitler's extermination of the Jews wasn't an an attempt to win the war, but instead to eradicate the Jewish people. But again, with you, I try not to make assumptions.
Hopefully, we can at least agree that killing prisoners of war is wrong, but again, with you, I never know, you're so morally bankrupt.
True, we agree on most subjects. But when your positions are so beyond the bounds of morality and common human decency, as yours unequivocally are, you deserve to be called out.KaiBear said:Mothra said:Saying we simply disagree is a cop out. Your positions are illogical, indefensible and morally bankrupt. You have indeed lost both your mind and your moral compass.KaiBear said:My friend, we simply disagree.Mothra said:So raping women and summarily executing prisoners is now the equivalent of targeted bombing of cities designed to end the war?KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Wow. Incredible. I leave this thread for a few days and you've completely lost your ability to employ reason and logic. You've lost your mind.
There is no 'moral compass' in any war.
Least of all when thousands of women and children are incinerated or slowly rot away from nuclear radiation.
No, I have not ' lost my mind '.
But you are losing a bit of your grace.
Just a message board. Nothing posted here matters in the slightest.
Just calling it like I see it. I misjudged you.
I forgive you for your reckless insults and will not respond in kind .
If the past is any indication you will resume tolerating my character flaws when we agree on a future topic.
As we usually do.
Peace Be With You
Oh for the love of .... Sam must have installed a bot to post for him, no human could seriously pretend comparing Tojo or Hitler to FDR was "moral consistency".Sam Lowry said:And we're talking about a policy of decimating Japan's population in order to break their will. There was no tactical reason for it.Oldbear83 said:
This post is incredibly Putinesque:
No concern for the Fascist character of the Nazi and Konoe regimes, nor consideration that Japan's foreign policy from the mid-1930's on was conquest;
Equivocation of Japanese and American purposes and goals, as if morally equivalent;
Complete silence regarding policies of rape and torture as control methodologies ...
et cetera.
What you call moral equivalency is really just moral consistency. That's what some of you cant and won't abide.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier