The Putin Interview

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Sam Lowry
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What it says:

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The dangers of ignoring Ukraine's neo-Nazis

Kyiv's tolerance for fascist extremism should cause the U.S. government to re-evaluate its support of Ukraine.

By Ben Choucroun
Published October 13, 2023

The name "Azov Brigade" should be recognizable to anyone who follows the conflict in Ukraine. To Ukraine, it is a key military unit composed of motivated fighters who have resisted Russian aggression. To Russia, the Azov Brigade is a neo-Nazi terrorist formation. Both of these narratives contain elements of truth. Azov Battalion is an important part of Ukraine's war effort, and it is a neo-Nazi formation that has committed numerous atrocities. The U.S.'s continuing military support for Ukraine despite its neo-Nazi problem and the whitewashing of the Azov by media outlets are fueling racism both in and outside of Ukraine.

The origins of the Azov Battalion lie in the 2014 Euromaidan Revolution, in which demonstrators overthrew the Ukrainian government. The revolutionaries were led by Andriy Parubiy, the founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (renamed Svoboda). After the revolution, members of Svoboda were appointed to key government positions, including minister of defense, head of the general prosecutor's office and deputy prime minister.

After Euromaidan, Russian-speaking territories in the eastern region of Donbas launched a rebellion against the far-right government in Kyiv. Volunteer militias, including the Azov Battalion (which was formed by the neo-Nazi Patriot of Ukraine party), arose to fight the rebels.

Between 2014 and 2022, as the war in Donbas dragged on, Ukraine's far-right government continuously passed laws glorifying Nazi collaborators. In 2018, then-president Petro Poroshenko created a national holiday for Stepan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator whose soldiers murdered up to 100,000 people during the Holocaust. Poroshenko even made it a criminal offense to denigrate Bandera's organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, and a government-funded museum opened an exhibit in their honor.

Unsurprisingly, Azov only grew. Between 2014 and 2022, Azov trained neo-Nazi terrorists and even recruited Brazilian fascists to fight in Ukraine. They were banned from Facebook for racist and antisemitic content (they titled one page "Gas Chambers"). Yet, they were described by Poroshenko as "our best warriors," and Vadim Troyan, a veteran of the Azov Battalion and Patriot of Ukraine, was appointed to be deputy minister of the interior, putting a neo-Nazi in charge of Ukraine's National Police.

When Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Azov gained more prominence. The unit garnered praise from the Ukrainian government and was further integrated into the Ukrainian military, being expanded from a regiment into a brigade. Some media outlets changed the way they describe Azov; German state-owned media outlet Deutsche Welle, which once described Azov as a neo-Nazi regiment, soon began labeling allegations of neo-Nazism as Russian propaganda. The BBC followed a similar line, moving from investigating Azov's neo-Nazi ideology in depth to downplaying Azov's neo-Nazism.

Azov has not been "de-Nazified" after it was further integrated into the Ukrainian military in 2022, as Azov and some media outlets claim. Much of Azov's leadership has been in the group since 2014 and has demonstrated neo-Nazi ties. Azov's press officer and the head of Azov's military school run social media accounts adorned with neo-Nazi symbolism. Azov's logo even contains the Wolfsangel, a neo-Nazi symbol. Not only is Azov a neo-Nazi military unit, but Western media outlets are complicit in whitewashing that fact, commiting journalistic malpractice of the highest order.

As Lev Golkin discussed in one article, Azov has a symbiotic relationship with Putin. Azov's existence allows Putin to justify his illegal invasion by claiming he is "de-Nazifying" Ukraine. Putin's rhetoric allows Azov to further justify its existence to Western countries based on its opposition to Putin, and receive more support from the Ukrainian government. This gives Putin even more rhetorical weight to justify his invasion of Ukraine, and so the cycle continues.

The losers of this dynamic are sure to be Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. In 2017, according to one report, Ukraine had more incidents of antisemitism than all other post-Soviet countries combined. In 2018, Nazi groups and police marched door to door, terrorizing Roma people. Among the groups marching was C14, a neo-Nazi organization which has in the past received funding from the Ukrainian government.

Additionally, the presence of neo-Nazi ideology in the Ukrainian government goes beyond Azov and similar gangs. Ukraine's parliament recently quoted Stepan Bandera in a statement. Ukraine's Ministry of Defense posted a picture of a Ukrainian soldier wearing a patch with neo-Nazi symbols before deleting it after outcry. A Ukrainian general was filmed threatening to destroy Jews.

By integrating Azov into its armed forces and outlawing the denigration of Holocaust perpetrators, the Ukrainian government has shown it is willing to tolerate neo-Nazi extremism, which directly threatens Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. If the U.S. cares about its stated commitment to human rights, it should immediately re-evaluate its support for Ukraine and stop ignoring the radicalization of Ukraine's military. Once a government starts employing neo-Nazis, it loses all moral superiority.

What Mothra sees:

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!!!!ILLEGAL INVASION!!1!

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Mothra
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

What it says:

Quote:

The dangers of ignoring Ukraine's neo-Nazis

Kyiv's tolerance for fascist extremism should cause the U.S. government to re-evaluate its support of Ukraine.

By Ben Choucroun
Published October 13, 2023

The name "Azov Brigade" should be recognizable to anyone who follows the conflict in Ukraine. To Ukraine, it is a key military unit composed of motivated fighters who have resisted Russian aggression. To Russia, the Azov Brigade is a neo-Nazi terrorist formation. Both of these narratives contain elements of truth. Azov Battalion is an important part of Ukraine's war effort, and it is a neo-Nazi formation that has committed numerous atrocities. The U.S.'s continuing military support for Ukraine despite its neo-Nazi problem and the whitewashing of the Azov by media outlets are fueling racism both in and outside of Ukraine.

The origins of the Azov Battalion lie in the 2014 Euromaidan Revolution, in which demonstrators overthrew the Ukrainian government. The revolutionaries were led by Andriy Parubiy, the founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (renamed Svoboda). After the revolution, members of Svoboda were appointed to key government positions, including minister of defense, head of the general prosecutor's office and deputy prime minister.

After Euromaidan, Russian-speaking territories in the eastern region of Donbas launched a rebellion against the far-right government in Kyiv. Volunteer militias, including the Azov Battalion (which was formed by the neo-Nazi Patriot of Ukraine party), arose to fight the rebels.

Between 2014 and 2022, as the war in Donbas dragged on, Ukraine's far-right government continuously passed laws glorifying Nazi collaborators. In 2018, then-president Petro Poroshenko created a national holiday for Stepan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator whose soldiers murdered up to 100,000 people during the Holocaust. Poroshenko even made it a criminal offense to denigrate Bandera's organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, and a government-funded museum opened an exhibit in their honor.

Unsurprisingly, Azov only grew. Between 2014 and 2022, Azov trained neo-Nazi terrorists and even recruited Brazilian fascists to fight in Ukraine. They were banned from Facebook for racist and antisemitic content (they titled one page "Gas Chambers"). Yet, they were described by Poroshenko as "our best warriors," and Vadim Troyan, a veteran of the Azov Battalion and Patriot of Ukraine, was appointed to be deputy minister of the interior, putting a neo-Nazi in charge of Ukraine's National Police.

When Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Azov gained more prominence. The unit garnered praise from the Ukrainian government and was further integrated into the Ukrainian military, being expanded from a regiment into a brigade. Some media outlets changed the way they describe Azov; German state-owned media outlet Deutsche Welle, which once described Azov as a neo-Nazi regiment, soon began labeling allegations of neo-Nazism as Russian propaganda. The BBC followed a similar line, moving from investigating Azov's neo-Nazi ideology in depth to downplaying Azov's neo-Nazism.

Azov has not been "de-Nazified" after it was further integrated into the Ukrainian military in 2022, as Azov and some media outlets claim. Much of Azov's leadership has been in the group since 2014 and has demonstrated neo-Nazi ties. Azov's press officer and the head of Azov's military school run social media accounts adorned with neo-Nazi symbolism. Azov's logo even contains the Wolfsangel, a neo-Nazi symbol. Not only is Azov a neo-Nazi military unit, but Western media outlets are complicit in whitewashing that fact, commiting journalistic malpractice of the highest order.

As Lev Golkin discussed in one article, Azov has a symbiotic relationship with Putin. Azov's existence allows Putin to justify his illegal invasion by claiming he is "de-Nazifying" Ukraine. Putin's rhetoric allows Azov to further justify its existence to Western countries based on its opposition to Putin, and receive more support from the Ukrainian government. This gives Putin even more rhetorical weight to justify his invasion of Ukraine, and so the cycle continues.

The losers of this dynamic are sure to be Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. In 2017, according to one report, Ukraine had more incidents of antisemitism than all other post-Soviet countries combined. In 2018, Nazi groups and police marched door to door, terrorizing Roma people. Among the groups marching was C14, a neo-Nazi organization which has in the past received funding from the Ukrainian government.

Additionally, the presence of neo-Nazi ideology in the Ukrainian government goes beyond Azov and similar gangs. Ukraine's parliament recently quoted Stepan Bandera in a statement. Ukraine's Ministry of Defense posted a picture of a Ukrainian soldier wearing a patch with neo-Nazi symbols before deleting it after outcry. A Ukrainian general was filmed threatening to destroy Jews.

By integrating Azov into its armed forces and outlawing the denigration of Holocaust perpetrators, the Ukrainian government has shown it is willing to tolerate neo-Nazi extremism, which directly threatens Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. If the U.S. cares about its stated commitment to human rights, it should immediately re-evaluate its support for Ukraine and stop ignoring the radicalization of Ukraine's military. Once a government starts employing neo-Nazis, it loses all moral superiority.

What Mothra sees:

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!!!!ILLEGAL INVASION!!1!

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I think this might be the equivalent of an emoji response.
ATL Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

What it says:

Quote:

The dangers of ignoring Ukraine's neo-Nazis

Kyiv's tolerance for fascist extremism should cause the U.S. government to re-evaluate its support of Ukraine.

By Ben Choucroun
Published October 13, 2023

The name "Azov Brigade" should be recognizable to anyone who follows the conflict in Ukraine. To Ukraine, it is a key military unit composed of motivated fighters who have resisted Russian aggression. To Russia, the Azov Brigade is a neo-Nazi terrorist formation. Both of these narratives contain elements of truth. Azov Battalion is an important part of Ukraine's war effort, and it is a neo-Nazi formation that has committed numerous atrocities. The U.S.'s continuing military support for Ukraine despite its neo-Nazi problem and the whitewashing of the Azov by media outlets are fueling racism both in and outside of Ukraine.

The origins of the Azov Battalion lie in the 2014 Euromaidan Revolution, in which demonstrators overthrew the Ukrainian government. The revolutionaries were led by Andriy Parubiy, the founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (renamed Svoboda). After the revolution, members of Svoboda were appointed to key government positions, including minister of defense, head of the general prosecutor's office and deputy prime minister.

After Euromaidan, Russian-speaking territories in the eastern region of Donbas launched a rebellion against the far-right government in Kyiv. Volunteer militias, including the Azov Battalion (which was formed by the neo-Nazi Patriot of Ukraine party), arose to fight the rebels.

Between 2014 and 2022, as the war in Donbas dragged on, Ukraine's far-right government continuously passed laws glorifying Nazi collaborators. In 2018, then-president Petro Poroshenko created a national holiday for Stepan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator whose soldiers murdered up to 100,000 people during the Holocaust. Poroshenko even made it a criminal offense to denigrate Bandera's organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, and a government-funded museum opened an exhibit in their honor.

Unsurprisingly, Azov only grew. Between 2014 and 2022, Azov trained neo-Nazi terrorists and even recruited Brazilian fascists to fight in Ukraine. They were banned from Facebook for racist and antisemitic content (they titled one page "Gas Chambers"). Yet, they were described by Poroshenko as "our best warriors," and Vadim Troyan, a veteran of the Azov Battalion and Patriot of Ukraine, was appointed to be deputy minister of the interior, putting a neo-Nazi in charge of Ukraine's National Police.

When Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Azov gained more prominence. The unit garnered praise from the Ukrainian government and was further integrated into the Ukrainian military, being expanded from a regiment into a brigade. Some media outlets changed the way they describe Azov; German state-owned media outlet Deutsche Welle, which once described Azov as a neo-Nazi regiment, soon began labeling allegations of neo-Nazism as Russian propaganda. The BBC followed a similar line, moving from investigating Azov's neo-Nazi ideology in depth to downplaying Azov's neo-Nazism.

Azov has not been "de-Nazified" after it was further integrated into the Ukrainian military in 2022, as Azov and some media outlets claim. Much of Azov's leadership has been in the group since 2014 and has demonstrated neo-Nazi ties. Azov's press officer and the head of Azov's military school run social media accounts adorned with neo-Nazi symbolism. Azov's logo even contains the Wolfsangel, a neo-Nazi symbol. Not only is Azov a neo-Nazi military unit, but Western media outlets are complicit in whitewashing that fact, commiting journalistic malpractice of the highest order.

As Lev Golkin discussed in one article, Azov has a symbiotic relationship with Putin. Azov's existence allows Putin to justify his illegal invasion by claiming he is "de-Nazifying" Ukraine. Putin's rhetoric allows Azov to further justify its existence to Western countries based on its opposition to Putin, and receive more support from the Ukrainian government. This gives Putin even more rhetorical weight to justify his invasion of Ukraine, and so the cycle continues.

The losers of this dynamic are sure to be Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. In 2017, according to one report, Ukraine had more incidents of antisemitism than all other post-Soviet countries combined. In 2018, Nazi groups and police marched door to door, terrorizing Roma people. Among the groups marching was C14, a neo-Nazi organization which has in the past received funding from the Ukrainian government.

Additionally, the presence of neo-Nazi ideology in the Ukrainian government goes beyond Azov and similar gangs. Ukraine's parliament recently quoted Stepan Bandera in a statement. Ukraine's Ministry of Defense posted a picture of a Ukrainian soldier wearing a patch with neo-Nazi symbols before deleting it after outcry. A Ukrainian general was filmed threatening to destroy Jews.

By integrating Azov into its armed forces and outlawing the denigration of Holocaust perpetrators, the Ukrainian government has shown it is willing to tolerate neo-Nazi extremism, which directly threatens Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. If the U.S. cares about its stated commitment to human rights, it should immediately re-evaluate its support for Ukraine and stop ignoring the radicalization of Ukraine's military. Once a government starts employing neo-Nazis, it loses all moral superiority.

What Mothra sees:

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!!!!ILLEGAL INVASION!!1!

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Even if I engaged in this Russian propagated fantasy of a big Nazi problem, why is it any of Russia's business? They weren't even a threat to Russians until Putin invaded Crimea. Russia doesn't want a strong independent Ukraine, so they manufacture this crisis to marginalize Ukrainian nationalist sentiment. All part of the info war, until Russia decided to make it a real one.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

What it says:

Quote:

The dangers of ignoring Ukraine's neo-Nazis

Kyiv's tolerance for fascist extremism should cause the U.S. government to re-evaluate its support of Ukraine.

By Ben Choucroun
Published October 13, 2023

The name "Azov Brigade" should be recognizable to anyone who follows the conflict in Ukraine. To Ukraine, it is a key military unit composed of motivated fighters who have resisted Russian aggression. To Russia, the Azov Brigade is a neo-Nazi terrorist formation. Both of these narratives contain elements of truth. Azov Battalion is an important part of Ukraine's war effort, and it is a neo-Nazi formation that has committed numerous atrocities. The U.S.'s continuing military support for Ukraine despite its neo-Nazi problem and the whitewashing of the Azov by media outlets are fueling racism both in and outside of Ukraine.

The origins of the Azov Battalion lie in the 2014 Euromaidan Revolution, in which demonstrators overthrew the Ukrainian government. The revolutionaries were led by Andriy Parubiy, the founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (renamed Svoboda). After the revolution, members of Svoboda were appointed to key government positions, including minister of defense, head of the general prosecutor's office and deputy prime minister.

After Euromaidan, Russian-speaking territories in the eastern region of Donbas launched a rebellion against the far-right government in Kyiv. Volunteer militias, including the Azov Battalion (which was formed by the neo-Nazi Patriot of Ukraine party), arose to fight the rebels.

Between 2014 and 2022, as the war in Donbas dragged on, Ukraine's far-right government continuously passed laws glorifying Nazi collaborators. In 2018, then-president Petro Poroshenko created a national holiday for Stepan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator whose soldiers murdered up to 100,000 people during the Holocaust. Poroshenko even made it a criminal offense to denigrate Bandera's organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, and a government-funded museum opened an exhibit in their honor.

Unsurprisingly, Azov only grew. Between 2014 and 2022, Azov trained neo-Nazi terrorists and even recruited Brazilian fascists to fight in Ukraine. They were banned from Facebook for racist and antisemitic content (they titled one page "Gas Chambers"). Yet, they were described by Poroshenko as "our best warriors," and Vadim Troyan, a veteran of the Azov Battalion and Patriot of Ukraine, was appointed to be deputy minister of the interior, putting a neo-Nazi in charge of Ukraine's National Police.

When Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Azov gained more prominence. The unit garnered praise from the Ukrainian government and was further integrated into the Ukrainian military, being expanded from a regiment into a brigade. Some media outlets changed the way they describe Azov; German state-owned media outlet Deutsche Welle, which once described Azov as a neo-Nazi regiment, soon began labeling allegations of neo-Nazism as Russian propaganda. The BBC followed a similar line, moving from investigating Azov's neo-Nazi ideology in depth to downplaying Azov's neo-Nazism.

Azov has not been "de-Nazified" after it was further integrated into the Ukrainian military in 2022, as Azov and some media outlets claim. Much of Azov's leadership has been in the group since 2014 and has demonstrated neo-Nazi ties. Azov's press officer and the head of Azov's military school run social media accounts adorned with neo-Nazi symbolism. Azov's logo even contains the Wolfsangel, a neo-Nazi symbol. Not only is Azov a neo-Nazi military unit, but Western media outlets are complicit in whitewashing that fact, commiting journalistic malpractice of the highest order.

As Lev Golkin discussed in one article, Azov has a symbiotic relationship with Putin. Azov's existence allows Putin to justify his illegal invasion by claiming he is "de-Nazifying" Ukraine. Putin's rhetoric allows Azov to further justify its existence to Western countries based on its opposition to Putin, and receive more support from the Ukrainian government. This gives Putin even more rhetorical weight to justify his invasion of Ukraine, and so the cycle continues.

The losers of this dynamic are sure to be Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. In 2017, according to one report, Ukraine had more incidents of antisemitism than all other post-Soviet countries combined. In 2018, Nazi groups and police marched door to door, terrorizing Roma people. Among the groups marching was C14, a neo-Nazi organization which has in the past received funding from the Ukrainian government.

Additionally, the presence of neo-Nazi ideology in the Ukrainian government goes beyond Azov and similar gangs. Ukraine's parliament recently quoted Stepan Bandera in a statement. Ukraine's Ministry of Defense posted a picture of a Ukrainian soldier wearing a patch with neo-Nazi symbols before deleting it after outcry. A Ukrainian general was filmed threatening to destroy Jews.

By integrating Azov into its armed forces and outlawing the denigration of Holocaust perpetrators, the Ukrainian government has shown it is willing to tolerate neo-Nazi extremism, which directly threatens Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. If the U.S. cares about its stated commitment to human rights, it should immediately re-evaluate its support for Ukraine and stop ignoring the radicalization of Ukraine's military. Once a government starts employing neo-Nazis, it loses all moral superiority.

What Mothra sees:

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!!!!ILLEGAL INVASION!!1!

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Even if I engaged in this Russian propagated fantasy of a big Nazi problem, why is it any of Russia's business? They weren't even a threat to Russians until Putin invaded Crimea. Russia doesn't want a strong independent Ukraine, so they manufacture this crisis to marginalize Ukrainian nationalist sentiment. All part of the info war, until Russia decided to make it a real one.
Western media recognized it as a problem prior to the war. It's the denial since 2022 that is a form of propaganda. Putin didn't start the Donbas war by annexing Crimea. He sees the Nazis as a tool of US policy, and with good reason. It's what they have been to varying degrees ever since WWII.
ATL Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

What it says:

Quote:

The dangers of ignoring Ukraine's neo-Nazis

Kyiv's tolerance for fascist extremism should cause the U.S. government to re-evaluate its support of Ukraine.

By Ben Choucroun
Published October 13, 2023

The name "Azov Brigade" should be recognizable to anyone who follows the conflict in Ukraine. To Ukraine, it is a key military unit composed of motivated fighters who have resisted Russian aggression. To Russia, the Azov Brigade is a neo-Nazi terrorist formation. Both of these narratives contain elements of truth. Azov Battalion is an important part of Ukraine's war effort, and it is a neo-Nazi formation that has committed numerous atrocities. The U.S.'s continuing military support for Ukraine despite its neo-Nazi problem and the whitewashing of the Azov by media outlets are fueling racism both in and outside of Ukraine.

The origins of the Azov Battalion lie in the 2014 Euromaidan Revolution, in which demonstrators overthrew the Ukrainian government. The revolutionaries were led by Andriy Parubiy, the founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (renamed Svoboda). After the revolution, members of Svoboda were appointed to key government positions, including minister of defense, head of the general prosecutor's office and deputy prime minister.

After Euromaidan, Russian-speaking territories in the eastern region of Donbas launched a rebellion against the far-right government in Kyiv. Volunteer militias, including the Azov Battalion (which was formed by the neo-Nazi Patriot of Ukraine party), arose to fight the rebels.

Between 2014 and 2022, as the war in Donbas dragged on, Ukraine's far-right government continuously passed laws glorifying Nazi collaborators. In 2018, then-president Petro Poroshenko created a national holiday for Stepan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator whose soldiers murdered up to 100,000 people during the Holocaust. Poroshenko even made it a criminal offense to denigrate Bandera's organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, and a government-funded museum opened an exhibit in their honor.

Unsurprisingly, Azov only grew. Between 2014 and 2022, Azov trained neo-Nazi terrorists and even recruited Brazilian fascists to fight in Ukraine. They were banned from Facebook for racist and antisemitic content (they titled one page "Gas Chambers"). Yet, they were described by Poroshenko as "our best warriors," and Vadim Troyan, a veteran of the Azov Battalion and Patriot of Ukraine, was appointed to be deputy minister of the interior, putting a neo-Nazi in charge of Ukraine's National Police.

When Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Azov gained more prominence. The unit garnered praise from the Ukrainian government and was further integrated into the Ukrainian military, being expanded from a regiment into a brigade. Some media outlets changed the way they describe Azov; German state-owned media outlet Deutsche Welle, which once described Azov as a neo-Nazi regiment, soon began labeling allegations of neo-Nazism as Russian propaganda. The BBC followed a similar line, moving from investigating Azov's neo-Nazi ideology in depth to downplaying Azov's neo-Nazism.

Azov has not been "de-Nazified" after it was further integrated into the Ukrainian military in 2022, as Azov and some media outlets claim. Much of Azov's leadership has been in the group since 2014 and has demonstrated neo-Nazi ties. Azov's press officer and the head of Azov's military school run social media accounts adorned with neo-Nazi symbolism. Azov's logo even contains the Wolfsangel, a neo-Nazi symbol. Not only is Azov a neo-Nazi military unit, but Western media outlets are complicit in whitewashing that fact, commiting journalistic malpractice of the highest order.

As Lev Golkin discussed in one article, Azov has a symbiotic relationship with Putin. Azov's existence allows Putin to justify his illegal invasion by claiming he is "de-Nazifying" Ukraine. Putin's rhetoric allows Azov to further justify its existence to Western countries based on its opposition to Putin, and receive more support from the Ukrainian government. This gives Putin even more rhetorical weight to justify his invasion of Ukraine, and so the cycle continues.

The losers of this dynamic are sure to be Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. In 2017, according to one report, Ukraine had more incidents of antisemitism than all other post-Soviet countries combined. In 2018, Nazi groups and police marched door to door, terrorizing Roma people. Among the groups marching was C14, a neo-Nazi organization which has in the past received funding from the Ukrainian government.

Additionally, the presence of neo-Nazi ideology in the Ukrainian government goes beyond Azov and similar gangs. Ukraine's parliament recently quoted Stepan Bandera in a statement. Ukraine's Ministry of Defense posted a picture of a Ukrainian soldier wearing a patch with neo-Nazi symbols before deleting it after outcry. A Ukrainian general was filmed threatening to destroy Jews.

By integrating Azov into its armed forces and outlawing the denigration of Holocaust perpetrators, the Ukrainian government has shown it is willing to tolerate neo-Nazi extremism, which directly threatens Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. If the U.S. cares about its stated commitment to human rights, it should immediately re-evaluate its support for Ukraine and stop ignoring the radicalization of Ukraine's military. Once a government starts employing neo-Nazis, it loses all moral superiority.

What Mothra sees:

Quote:

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!!!!ILLEGAL INVASION!!1!

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Even if I engaged in this Russian propagated fantasy of a big Nazi problem, why is it any of Russia's business? They weren't even a threat to Russians until Putin invaded Crimea. Russia doesn't want a strong independent Ukraine, so they manufacture this crisis to marginalize Ukrainian nationalist sentiment. All part of the info war, until Russia decided to make it a real one.
Western media recognized it as a problem prior to the war. It's the denial since 2022 that is a form of propaganda. Putin didn't start the Donbas war by annexing Crimea. He sees the Nazis as a tool of US policy, and with good reason. It's what they have been to varying degrees ever since WWII.
Complete and utter BS, Sam. Putin started the Donbas War when Seperatists and Russian soldiers started occupying government buildings in Donetsk and Luhansk, aided by his forward positions in Crimea.

When you wonder how some of the Trumpers can excuse his actions with creative interpretation of events or whataboutism (as I do), try some reflection on Putin and your apologetics for him. It's eerily similar.

The Nazi problem is an overinflated fantasy of Putin and some of the liberal U.S. media swipes (like the White Supremacy problem). But for certain with both, the "Nazi threat" was no more of a threat to Russia than our "White Supremacy problem" is a threat to Canada.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

What it says:

Quote:

The dangers of ignoring Ukraine's neo-Nazis

Kyiv's tolerance for fascist extremism should cause the U.S. government to re-evaluate its support of Ukraine.

By Ben Choucroun
Published October 13, 2023

The name "Azov Brigade" should be recognizable to anyone who follows the conflict in Ukraine. To Ukraine, it is a key military unit composed of motivated fighters who have resisted Russian aggression. To Russia, the Azov Brigade is a neo-Nazi terrorist formation. Both of these narratives contain elements of truth. Azov Battalion is an important part of Ukraine's war effort, and it is a neo-Nazi formation that has committed numerous atrocities. The U.S.'s continuing military support for Ukraine despite its neo-Nazi problem and the whitewashing of the Azov by media outlets are fueling racism both in and outside of Ukraine.

The origins of the Azov Battalion lie in the 2014 Euromaidan Revolution, in which demonstrators overthrew the Ukrainian government. The revolutionaries were led by Andriy Parubiy, the founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (renamed Svoboda). After the revolution, members of Svoboda were appointed to key government positions, including minister of defense, head of the general prosecutor's office and deputy prime minister.

After Euromaidan, Russian-speaking territories in the eastern region of Donbas launched a rebellion against the far-right government in Kyiv. Volunteer militias, including the Azov Battalion (which was formed by the neo-Nazi Patriot of Ukraine party), arose to fight the rebels.

Between 2014 and 2022, as the war in Donbas dragged on, Ukraine's far-right government continuously passed laws glorifying Nazi collaborators. In 2018, then-president Petro Poroshenko created a national holiday for Stepan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator whose soldiers murdered up to 100,000 people during the Holocaust. Poroshenko even made it a criminal offense to denigrate Bandera's organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, and a government-funded museum opened an exhibit in their honor.

Unsurprisingly, Azov only grew. Between 2014 and 2022, Azov trained neo-Nazi terrorists and even recruited Brazilian fascists to fight in Ukraine. They were banned from Facebook for racist and antisemitic content (they titled one page "Gas Chambers"). Yet, they were described by Poroshenko as "our best warriors," and Vadim Troyan, a veteran of the Azov Battalion and Patriot of Ukraine, was appointed to be deputy minister of the interior, putting a neo-Nazi in charge of Ukraine's National Police.

When Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Azov gained more prominence. The unit garnered praise from the Ukrainian government and was further integrated into the Ukrainian military, being expanded from a regiment into a brigade. Some media outlets changed the way they describe Azov; German state-owned media outlet Deutsche Welle, which once described Azov as a neo-Nazi regiment, soon began labeling allegations of neo-Nazism as Russian propaganda. The BBC followed a similar line, moving from investigating Azov's neo-Nazi ideology in depth to downplaying Azov's neo-Nazism.

Azov has not been "de-Nazified" after it was further integrated into the Ukrainian military in 2022, as Azov and some media outlets claim. Much of Azov's leadership has been in the group since 2014 and has demonstrated neo-Nazi ties. Azov's press officer and the head of Azov's military school run social media accounts adorned with neo-Nazi symbolism. Azov's logo even contains the Wolfsangel, a neo-Nazi symbol. Not only is Azov a neo-Nazi military unit, but Western media outlets are complicit in whitewashing that fact, commiting journalistic malpractice of the highest order.

As Lev Golkin discussed in one article, Azov has a symbiotic relationship with Putin. Azov's existence allows Putin to justify his illegal invasion by claiming he is "de-Nazifying" Ukraine. Putin's rhetoric allows Azov to further justify its existence to Western countries based on its opposition to Putin, and receive more support from the Ukrainian government. This gives Putin even more rhetorical weight to justify his invasion of Ukraine, and so the cycle continues.

The losers of this dynamic are sure to be Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. In 2017, according to one report, Ukraine had more incidents of antisemitism than all other post-Soviet countries combined. In 2018, Nazi groups and police marched door to door, terrorizing Roma people. Among the groups marching was C14, a neo-Nazi organization which has in the past received funding from the Ukrainian government.

Additionally, the presence of neo-Nazi ideology in the Ukrainian government goes beyond Azov and similar gangs. Ukraine's parliament recently quoted Stepan Bandera in a statement. Ukraine's Ministry of Defense posted a picture of a Ukrainian soldier wearing a patch with neo-Nazi symbols before deleting it after outcry. A Ukrainian general was filmed threatening to destroy Jews.

By integrating Azov into its armed forces and outlawing the denigration of Holocaust perpetrators, the Ukrainian government has shown it is willing to tolerate neo-Nazi extremism, which directly threatens Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. If the U.S. cares about its stated commitment to human rights, it should immediately re-evaluate its support for Ukraine and stop ignoring the radicalization of Ukraine's military. Once a government starts employing neo-Nazis, it loses all moral superiority.

What Mothra sees:

Quote:

...

...

...
...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

!!!!ILLEGAL INVASION!!1!

....

...

...

Even if I engaged in this Russian propagated fantasy of a big Nazi problem, why is it any of Russia's business? They weren't even a threat to Russians until Putin invaded Crimea. Russia doesn't want a strong independent Ukraine, so they manufacture this crisis to marginalize Ukrainian nationalist sentiment. All part of the info war, until Russia decided to make it a real one.
Western media recognized it as a problem prior to the war. It's the denial since 2022 that is a form of propaganda. Putin didn't start the Donbas war by annexing Crimea. He sees the Nazis as a tool of US policy, and with good reason. It's what they have been to varying degrees ever since WWII.
Complete and utter BS, Sam. Putin started the Donbas War when Seperatists and Russian soldiers started occupying government buildings in Donetsk and Luhansk, aided by his forward positions in Crimea.

When you wonder how some of the Trumpers can excuse his actions with creative interpretation of events or whataboutism (as I do), try some reflection on Putin and your apologetics for him. It's eerily similar.

The Nazi problem is an overinflated fantasy of Putin and some of the liberal U.S. media swipes (like the White Supremacy problem). But for certain with both, the "Nazi threat" was no more of a threat to Russia than our "White Supremacy problem" is a threat to Canada.
And the separatists would have done that regardless. It's debatable whether Ukrainian Nazi groups would be a threat on their own. What you keep ignoring is that they're being armed, trained, and encouraged (if not directed) by the CIA. The last time that happened they ran a decade-long insurgency, committed hundreds of assassinations and terrorists acts, infiltrated the Soviet military, and massacred over a hundred thousand people.
ATL Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

What it says:

Quote:

The dangers of ignoring Ukraine's neo-Nazis

Kyiv's tolerance for fascist extremism should cause the U.S. government to re-evaluate its support of Ukraine.

By Ben Choucroun
Published October 13, 2023

The name "Azov Brigade" should be recognizable to anyone who follows the conflict in Ukraine. To Ukraine, it is a key military unit composed of motivated fighters who have resisted Russian aggression. To Russia, the Azov Brigade is a neo-Nazi terrorist formation. Both of these narratives contain elements of truth. Azov Battalion is an important part of Ukraine's war effort, and it is a neo-Nazi formation that has committed numerous atrocities. The U.S.'s continuing military support for Ukraine despite its neo-Nazi problem and the whitewashing of the Azov by media outlets are fueling racism both in and outside of Ukraine.

The origins of the Azov Battalion lie in the 2014 Euromaidan Revolution, in which demonstrators overthrew the Ukrainian government. The revolutionaries were led by Andriy Parubiy, the founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (renamed Svoboda). After the revolution, members of Svoboda were appointed to key government positions, including minister of defense, head of the general prosecutor's office and deputy prime minister.

After Euromaidan, Russian-speaking territories in the eastern region of Donbas launched a rebellion against the far-right government in Kyiv. Volunteer militias, including the Azov Battalion (which was formed by the neo-Nazi Patriot of Ukraine party), arose to fight the rebels.

Between 2014 and 2022, as the war in Donbas dragged on, Ukraine's far-right government continuously passed laws glorifying Nazi collaborators. In 2018, then-president Petro Poroshenko created a national holiday for Stepan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator whose soldiers murdered up to 100,000 people during the Holocaust. Poroshenko even made it a criminal offense to denigrate Bandera's organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, and a government-funded museum opened an exhibit in their honor.

Unsurprisingly, Azov only grew. Between 2014 and 2022, Azov trained neo-Nazi terrorists and even recruited Brazilian fascists to fight in Ukraine. They were banned from Facebook for racist and antisemitic content (they titled one page "Gas Chambers"). Yet, they were described by Poroshenko as "our best warriors," and Vadim Troyan, a veteran of the Azov Battalion and Patriot of Ukraine, was appointed to be deputy minister of the interior, putting a neo-Nazi in charge of Ukraine's National Police.

When Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Azov gained more prominence. The unit garnered praise from the Ukrainian government and was further integrated into the Ukrainian military, being expanded from a regiment into a brigade. Some media outlets changed the way they describe Azov; German state-owned media outlet Deutsche Welle, which once described Azov as a neo-Nazi regiment, soon began labeling allegations of neo-Nazism as Russian propaganda. The BBC followed a similar line, moving from investigating Azov's neo-Nazi ideology in depth to downplaying Azov's neo-Nazism.

Azov has not been "de-Nazified" after it was further integrated into the Ukrainian military in 2022, as Azov and some media outlets claim. Much of Azov's leadership has been in the group since 2014 and has demonstrated neo-Nazi ties. Azov's press officer and the head of Azov's military school run social media accounts adorned with neo-Nazi symbolism. Azov's logo even contains the Wolfsangel, a neo-Nazi symbol. Not only is Azov a neo-Nazi military unit, but Western media outlets are complicit in whitewashing that fact, commiting journalistic malpractice of the highest order.

As Lev Golkin discussed in one article, Azov has a symbiotic relationship with Putin. Azov's existence allows Putin to justify his illegal invasion by claiming he is "de-Nazifying" Ukraine. Putin's rhetoric allows Azov to further justify its existence to Western countries based on its opposition to Putin, and receive more support from the Ukrainian government. This gives Putin even more rhetorical weight to justify his invasion of Ukraine, and so the cycle continues.

The losers of this dynamic are sure to be Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. In 2017, according to one report, Ukraine had more incidents of antisemitism than all other post-Soviet countries combined. In 2018, Nazi groups and police marched door to door, terrorizing Roma people. Among the groups marching was C14, a neo-Nazi organization which has in the past received funding from the Ukrainian government.

Additionally, the presence of neo-Nazi ideology in the Ukrainian government goes beyond Azov and similar gangs. Ukraine's parliament recently quoted Stepan Bandera in a statement. Ukraine's Ministry of Defense posted a picture of a Ukrainian soldier wearing a patch with neo-Nazi symbols before deleting it after outcry. A Ukrainian general was filmed threatening to destroy Jews.

By integrating Azov into its armed forces and outlawing the denigration of Holocaust perpetrators, the Ukrainian government has shown it is willing to tolerate neo-Nazi extremism, which directly threatens Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. If the U.S. cares about its stated commitment to human rights, it should immediately re-evaluate its support for Ukraine and stop ignoring the radicalization of Ukraine's military. Once a government starts employing neo-Nazis, it loses all moral superiority.

What Mothra sees:

Quote:

...

...

...
...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

!!!!ILLEGAL INVASION!!1!

....

...

...

Even if I engaged in this Russian propagated fantasy of a big Nazi problem, why is it any of Russia's business? They weren't even a threat to Russians until Putin invaded Crimea. Russia doesn't want a strong independent Ukraine, so they manufacture this crisis to marginalize Ukrainian nationalist sentiment. All part of the info war, until Russia decided to make it a real one.
Western media recognized it as a problem prior to the war. It's the denial since 2022 that is a form of propaganda. Putin didn't start the Donbas war by annexing Crimea. He sees the Nazis as a tool of US policy, and with good reason. It's what they have been to varying degrees ever since WWII.
Complete and utter BS, Sam. Putin started the Donbas War when Seperatists and Russian soldiers started occupying government buildings in Donetsk and Luhansk, aided by his forward positions in Crimea.

When you wonder how some of the Trumpers can excuse his actions with creative interpretation of events or whataboutism (as I do), try some reflection on Putin and your apologetics for him. It's eerily similar.

The Nazi problem is an overinflated fantasy of Putin and some of the liberal U.S. media swipes (like the White Supremacy problem). But for certain with both, the "Nazi threat" was no more of a threat to Russia than our "White Supremacy problem" is a threat to Canada.
And the separatists would have done that regardless. It's debatable whether Ukrainian Nazi groups would be a threat on their own. What you keep ignoring is that they're being armed, trained, and encouraged (if not directed) by the CIA. The last time that happened they ran a decade-long insurgency, committed hundreds of assassinations and terrorists acts, infiltrated the Soviet military, and massacred over a hundred thousand people.
Wait, are you tying WW2 Soviet resistance activities to the CIA?
Realitybites
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ATL Bear said:

]Wait, are you tying WW2 Soviet resistance activities to the CIA?


Public school history class about World War II would have you believe that the Germans were Nazis, part of the Axis, and the enemy. While this is technically true, it does not come anywhere near capturing the complicated relationship that the west had with Nazis before, during, and after the war.

For example, here is a picture of a Nazi party meeting.in 1939.


...in Madison Square Garden, in New York.

And another.




Both Joe Kennedy Sr and Prescott Bush were Nazi sympathizers.

You can go further and look into how many NATO secretary generals were either former Nazi officers or children of prominent party members.

These were people at the highest levels of western society, not some incel in a cabin in Montana. It isn't as if these people and their ideology simply went away after VE day. A pretty good case could be made that they simply replaced national socialism with international socialism and that is what we are living with today.
Mothra
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

What it says:

Quote:

The dangers of ignoring Ukraine's neo-Nazis

Kyiv's tolerance for fascist extremism should cause the U.S. government to re-evaluate its support of Ukraine.

By Ben Choucroun
Published October 13, 2023

The name "Azov Brigade" should be recognizable to anyone who follows the conflict in Ukraine. To Ukraine, it is a key military unit composed of motivated fighters who have resisted Russian aggression. To Russia, the Azov Brigade is a neo-Nazi terrorist formation. Both of these narratives contain elements of truth. Azov Battalion is an important part of Ukraine's war effort, and it is a neo-Nazi formation that has committed numerous atrocities. The U.S.'s continuing military support for Ukraine despite its neo-Nazi problem and the whitewashing of the Azov by media outlets are fueling racism both in and outside of Ukraine.

The origins of the Azov Battalion lie in the 2014 Euromaidan Revolution, in which demonstrators overthrew the Ukrainian government. The revolutionaries were led by Andriy Parubiy, the founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (renamed Svoboda). After the revolution, members of Svoboda were appointed to key government positions, including minister of defense, head of the general prosecutor's office and deputy prime minister.

After Euromaidan, Russian-speaking territories in the eastern region of Donbas launched a rebellion against the far-right government in Kyiv. Volunteer militias, including the Azov Battalion (which was formed by the neo-Nazi Patriot of Ukraine party), arose to fight the rebels.

Between 2014 and 2022, as the war in Donbas dragged on, Ukraine's far-right government continuously passed laws glorifying Nazi collaborators. In 2018, then-president Petro Poroshenko created a national holiday for Stepan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator whose soldiers murdered up to 100,000 people during the Holocaust. Poroshenko even made it a criminal offense to denigrate Bandera's organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, and a government-funded museum opened an exhibit in their honor.

Unsurprisingly, Azov only grew. Between 2014 and 2022, Azov trained neo-Nazi terrorists and even recruited Brazilian fascists to fight in Ukraine. They were banned from Facebook for racist and antisemitic content (they titled one page "Gas Chambers"). Yet, they were described by Poroshenko as "our best warriors," and Vadim Troyan, a veteran of the Azov Battalion and Patriot of Ukraine, was appointed to be deputy minister of the interior, putting a neo-Nazi in charge of Ukraine's National Police.

When Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Azov gained more prominence. The unit garnered praise from the Ukrainian government and was further integrated into the Ukrainian military, being expanded from a regiment into a brigade. Some media outlets changed the way they describe Azov; German state-owned media outlet Deutsche Welle, which once described Azov as a neo-Nazi regiment, soon began labeling allegations of neo-Nazism as Russian propaganda. The BBC followed a similar line, moving from investigating Azov's neo-Nazi ideology in depth to downplaying Azov's neo-Nazism.

Azov has not been "de-Nazified" after it was further integrated into the Ukrainian military in 2022, as Azov and some media outlets claim. Much of Azov's leadership has been in the group since 2014 and has demonstrated neo-Nazi ties. Azov's press officer and the head of Azov's military school run social media accounts adorned with neo-Nazi symbolism. Azov's logo even contains the Wolfsangel, a neo-Nazi symbol. Not only is Azov a neo-Nazi military unit, but Western media outlets are complicit in whitewashing that fact, commiting journalistic malpractice of the highest order.

As Lev Golkin discussed in one article, Azov has a symbiotic relationship with Putin. Azov's existence allows Putin to justify his illegal invasion by claiming he is "de-Nazifying" Ukraine. Putin's rhetoric allows Azov to further justify its existence to Western countries based on its opposition to Putin, and receive more support from the Ukrainian government. This gives Putin even more rhetorical weight to justify his invasion of Ukraine, and so the cycle continues.

The losers of this dynamic are sure to be Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. In 2017, according to one report, Ukraine had more incidents of antisemitism than all other post-Soviet countries combined. In 2018, Nazi groups and police marched door to door, terrorizing Roma people. Among the groups marching was C14, a neo-Nazi organization which has in the past received funding from the Ukrainian government.

Additionally, the presence of neo-Nazi ideology in the Ukrainian government goes beyond Azov and similar gangs. Ukraine's parliament recently quoted Stepan Bandera in a statement. Ukraine's Ministry of Defense posted a picture of a Ukrainian soldier wearing a patch with neo-Nazi symbols before deleting it after outcry. A Ukrainian general was filmed threatening to destroy Jews.

By integrating Azov into its armed forces and outlawing the denigration of Holocaust perpetrators, the Ukrainian government has shown it is willing to tolerate neo-Nazi extremism, which directly threatens Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. If the U.S. cares about its stated commitment to human rights, it should immediately re-evaluate its support for Ukraine and stop ignoring the radicalization of Ukraine's military. Once a government starts employing neo-Nazis, it loses all moral superiority.

What Mothra sees:

Quote:

...

...

...
...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

!!!!ILLEGAL INVASION!!1!

....

...

...

Even if I engaged in this Russian propagated fantasy of a big Nazi problem, why is it any of Russia's business? They weren't even a threat to Russians until Putin invaded Crimea. Russia doesn't want a strong independent Ukraine, so they manufacture this crisis to marginalize Ukrainian nationalist sentiment. All part of the info war, until Russia decided to make it a real one.
Western media recognized it as a problem prior to the war. It's the denial since 2022 that is a form of propaganda. Putin didn't start the Donbas war by annexing Crimea. He sees the Nazis as a tool of US policy, and with good reason. It's what they have been to varying degrees ever since WWII.
Complete and utter BS, Sam. Putin started the Donbas War when Seperatists and Russian soldiers started occupying government buildings in Donetsk and Luhansk, aided by his forward positions in Crimea.

When you wonder how some of the Trumpers can excuse his actions with creative interpretation of events or whataboutism (as I do), try some reflection on Putin and your apologetics for him. It's eerily similar.

The Nazi problem is an overinflated fantasy of Putin and some of the liberal U.S. media swipes (like the White Supremacy problem). But for certain with both, the "Nazi threat" was no more of a threat to Russia than our "White Supremacy problem" is a threat to Canada.
And the separatists would have done that regardless. It's debatable whether Ukrainian Nazi groups would be a threat on their own. What you keep ignoring is that they're being armed, trained, and encouraged (if not directed) by the CIA. The last time that happened they ran a decade-long insurgency, committed hundreds of assassinations and terrorists acts, infiltrated the Soviet military, and massacred over a hundred thousand people.
What attacks have the Ukrainian "Nazis" perpetrated on the Russians both inside Russian borders? Unfortunately, my research isn't pulling up any verified attacks. I would assume since you believe that Russia invading Ukraine was a just response to the Nazi issue, you would have some evidence of same, no?
Mothra
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

What it says:

Quote:

The dangers of ignoring Ukraine's neo-Nazis

Kyiv's tolerance for fascist extremism should cause the U.S. government to re-evaluate its support of Ukraine.

By Ben Choucroun
Published October 13, 2023

The name "Azov Brigade" should be recognizable to anyone who follows the conflict in Ukraine. To Ukraine, it is a key military unit composed of motivated fighters who have resisted Russian aggression. To Russia, the Azov Brigade is a neo-Nazi terrorist formation. Both of these narratives contain elements of truth. Azov Battalion is an important part of Ukraine's war effort, and it is a neo-Nazi formation that has committed numerous atrocities. The U.S.'s continuing military support for Ukraine despite its neo-Nazi problem and the whitewashing of the Azov by media outlets are fueling racism both in and outside of Ukraine.

The origins of the Azov Battalion lie in the 2014 Euromaidan Revolution, in which demonstrators overthrew the Ukrainian government. The revolutionaries were led by Andriy Parubiy, the founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (renamed Svoboda). After the revolution, members of Svoboda were appointed to key government positions, including minister of defense, head of the general prosecutor's office and deputy prime minister.

After Euromaidan, Russian-speaking territories in the eastern region of Donbas launched a rebellion against the far-right government in Kyiv. Volunteer militias, including the Azov Battalion (which was formed by the neo-Nazi Patriot of Ukraine party), arose to fight the rebels.

Between 2014 and 2022, as the war in Donbas dragged on, Ukraine's far-right government continuously passed laws glorifying Nazi collaborators. In 2018, then-president Petro Poroshenko created a national holiday for Stepan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator whose soldiers murdered up to 100,000 people during the Holocaust. Poroshenko even made it a criminal offense to denigrate Bandera's organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, and a government-funded museum opened an exhibit in their honor.

Unsurprisingly, Azov only grew. Between 2014 and 2022, Azov trained neo-Nazi terrorists and even recruited Brazilian fascists to fight in Ukraine. They were banned from Facebook for racist and antisemitic content (they titled one page "Gas Chambers"). Yet, they were described by Poroshenko as "our best warriors," and Vadim Troyan, a veteran of the Azov Battalion and Patriot of Ukraine, was appointed to be deputy minister of the interior, putting a neo-Nazi in charge of Ukraine's National Police.

When Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Azov gained more prominence. The unit garnered praise from the Ukrainian government and was further integrated into the Ukrainian military, being expanded from a regiment into a brigade. Some media outlets changed the way they describe Azov; German state-owned media outlet Deutsche Welle, which once described Azov as a neo-Nazi regiment, soon began labeling allegations of neo-Nazism as Russian propaganda. The BBC followed a similar line, moving from investigating Azov's neo-Nazi ideology in depth to downplaying Azov's neo-Nazism.

Azov has not been "de-Nazified" after it was further integrated into the Ukrainian military in 2022, as Azov and some media outlets claim. Much of Azov's leadership has been in the group since 2014 and has demonstrated neo-Nazi ties. Azov's press officer and the head of Azov's military school run social media accounts adorned with neo-Nazi symbolism. Azov's logo even contains the Wolfsangel, a neo-Nazi symbol. Not only is Azov a neo-Nazi military unit, but Western media outlets are complicit in whitewashing that fact, commiting journalistic malpractice of the highest order.

As Lev Golkin discussed in one article, Azov has a symbiotic relationship with Putin. Azov's existence allows Putin to justify his illegal invasion by claiming he is "de-Nazifying" Ukraine. Putin's rhetoric allows Azov to further justify its existence to Western countries based on its opposition to Putin, and receive more support from the Ukrainian government. This gives Putin even more rhetorical weight to justify his invasion of Ukraine, and so the cycle continues.

The losers of this dynamic are sure to be Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. In 2017, according to one report, Ukraine had more incidents of antisemitism than all other post-Soviet countries combined. In 2018, Nazi groups and police marched door to door, terrorizing Roma people. Among the groups marching was C14, a neo-Nazi organization which has in the past received funding from the Ukrainian government.

Additionally, the presence of neo-Nazi ideology in the Ukrainian government goes beyond Azov and similar gangs. Ukraine's parliament recently quoted Stepan Bandera in a statement. Ukraine's Ministry of Defense posted a picture of a Ukrainian soldier wearing a patch with neo-Nazi symbols before deleting it after outcry. A Ukrainian general was filmed threatening to destroy Jews.

By integrating Azov into its armed forces and outlawing the denigration of Holocaust perpetrators, the Ukrainian government has shown it is willing to tolerate neo-Nazi extremism, which directly threatens Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. If the U.S. cares about its stated commitment to human rights, it should immediately re-evaluate its support for Ukraine and stop ignoring the radicalization of Ukraine's military. Once a government starts employing neo-Nazis, it loses all moral superiority.

What Mothra sees:

Quote:

...

...

...
...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

!!!!ILLEGAL INVASION!!1!

....

...

...

Even if I engaged in this Russian propagated fantasy of a big Nazi problem, why is it any of Russia's business? They weren't even a threat to Russians until Putin invaded Crimea. Russia doesn't want a strong independent Ukraine, so they manufacture this crisis to marginalize Ukrainian nationalist sentiment. All part of the info war, until Russia decided to make it a real one.
Western media recognized it as a problem prior to the war. It's the denial since 2022 that is a form of propaganda. Putin didn't start the Donbas war by annexing Crimea. He sees the Nazis as a tool of US policy, and with good reason. It's what they have been to varying degrees ever since WWII.
The Nazi problem is an overinflated fantasy of Putin and some of the liberal U.S. media swipes (like the White Supremacy problem). But for certain with both, the "Nazi threat" was no more of a threat to Russia than our "White Supremacy problem" is a threat to Canada.
It is an overinflated fantasy to all but Russian shills. And those supporting the fantasy are susceptible to such propaganda because of their anti-American sentiments.

Putin has done a number on them.
Realitybites
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Russia! Russia! Russia!

Putin! Putin! Putin!

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

ATL Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Realitybites said:

ATL Bear said:

]Wait, are you tying WW2 Soviet resistance activities to the CIA?


Public school history class about World War II would have you believe that the Germans were Nazis, part of the Axis, and the enemy. While this is technically true, it does not come anywhere near capturing the complicated relationship that the west had with Nazis before, during, and after the war.

For example, here is a picture of a Nazi party meeting.in 1939.

&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=e995bb97c6f68518928e7117f6e0685a485598872758ef5c7c6bb0bc8b8782fb&ipo=images

...in Madison Square Garden, in New York.

And another.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fs.yimg.com%2Fny%2Fapi%2Fres%2F1.2%2FpAoNt1kltlt_unsJ7gIX_Q--%2FYXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTEyMDA7aD05MDA-%2Fhttps%3A%2F%2Fmedia.zenfs.com%2Fen%2Finsider_articles_922%2F6d5cb1ab61ba8c210e06987416ff3645&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=bb1171f75bf68a43068165b8552b68cebd691cc132ef6148f785b17584a29f39&ipo=images

Both Joe Kennedy Sr and Prescott Bush were Nazi sympathizers.

You can go further and look into how many NATO secretary generals were either former Nazi officers or children of prominent party members.

These were people at the highest levels of western society, not some incel in a cabin in Montana. It isn't as if these people and their ideology simply went away after VE day. A pretty good case could be made that they simply replaced national socialism with international socialism and that is what we are living with today.
Feel free to weave whatever web of intrigue you want, but you should know you're classified as a Nazi. Any sort of hard nationalism that has tinges of anti-immigrant and anti-LGBTQ is a Nazi, at least that's what the argument is that's being put forth by Sam and Putin on their campaign to "de-nazify" Ukraine.
KaiBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Realitybites said:

ATL Bear said:

]Wait, are you tying WW2 Soviet resistance activities to the CIA?


Public school history class about World War II would have you believe that the Germans were Nazis, part of the Axis, and the enemy. While this is technically true, it does not come anywhere near capturing the complicated relationship that the west had with Nazis before, during, and after the war.

For example, here is a picture of a Nazi party meeting.in 1939.

&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=e995bb97c6f68518928e7117f6e0685a485598872758ef5c7c6bb0bc8b8782fb&ipo=images

...in Madison Square Garden, in New York.

And another.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fs.yimg.com%2Fny%2Fapi%2Fres%2F1.2%2FpAoNt1kltlt_unsJ7gIX_Q--%2FYXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTEyMDA7aD05MDA-%2Fhttps%3A%2F%2Fmedia.zenfs.com%2Fen%2Finsider_articles_922%2F6d5cb1ab61ba8c210e06987416ff3645&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=bb1171f75bf68a43068165b8552b68cebd691cc132ef6148f785b17584a29f39&ipo=images

Both Joe Kennedy Sr and Prescott Bush were Nazi sympathizers.

You can go further and look into how many NATO secretary generals were either former Nazi officers or children of prominent party members.

These were people at the highest levels of western society, not some incel in a cabin in Montana. It isn't as if these people and their ideology simply went away after VE day. A pretty good case could be made that they simply replaced national socialism with international socialism and that is what we are living with today.


Joe Kennedy Sr was not a Nazi sympathizer.

He simply didn't believed ( rightly ) Great Britain could survive alone against Germany.

Didn't want the US to get dragged into still another European war. ( As Churchill has actively trying to do )

So thought Great Britain should enter into a negotiated settlement to end the war.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

What it says:

Quote:

The dangers of ignoring Ukraine's neo-Nazis

Kyiv's tolerance for fascist extremism should cause the U.S. government to re-evaluate its support of Ukraine.

By Ben Choucroun
Published October 13, 2023

The name "Azov Brigade" should be recognizable to anyone who follows the conflict in Ukraine. To Ukraine, it is a key military unit composed of motivated fighters who have resisted Russian aggression. To Russia, the Azov Brigade is a neo-Nazi terrorist formation. Both of these narratives contain elements of truth. Azov Battalion is an important part of Ukraine's war effort, and it is a neo-Nazi formation that has committed numerous atrocities. The U.S.'s continuing military support for Ukraine despite its neo-Nazi problem and the whitewashing of the Azov by media outlets are fueling racism both in and outside of Ukraine.

The origins of the Azov Battalion lie in the 2014 Euromaidan Revolution, in which demonstrators overthrew the Ukrainian government. The revolutionaries were led by Andriy Parubiy, the founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (renamed Svoboda). After the revolution, members of Svoboda were appointed to key government positions, including minister of defense, head of the general prosecutor's office and deputy prime minister.

After Euromaidan, Russian-speaking territories in the eastern region of Donbas launched a rebellion against the far-right government in Kyiv. Volunteer militias, including the Azov Battalion (which was formed by the neo-Nazi Patriot of Ukraine party), arose to fight the rebels.

Between 2014 and 2022, as the war in Donbas dragged on, Ukraine's far-right government continuously passed laws glorifying Nazi collaborators. In 2018, then-president Petro Poroshenko created a national holiday for Stepan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator whose soldiers murdered up to 100,000 people during the Holocaust. Poroshenko even made it a criminal offense to denigrate Bandera's organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, and a government-funded museum opened an exhibit in their honor.

Unsurprisingly, Azov only grew. Between 2014 and 2022, Azov trained neo-Nazi terrorists and even recruited Brazilian fascists to fight in Ukraine. They were banned from Facebook for racist and antisemitic content (they titled one page "Gas Chambers"). Yet, they were described by Poroshenko as "our best warriors," and Vadim Troyan, a veteran of the Azov Battalion and Patriot of Ukraine, was appointed to be deputy minister of the interior, putting a neo-Nazi in charge of Ukraine's National Police.

When Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Azov gained more prominence. The unit garnered praise from the Ukrainian government and was further integrated into the Ukrainian military, being expanded from a regiment into a brigade. Some media outlets changed the way they describe Azov; German state-owned media outlet Deutsche Welle, which once described Azov as a neo-Nazi regiment, soon began labeling allegations of neo-Nazism as Russian propaganda. The BBC followed a similar line, moving from investigating Azov's neo-Nazi ideology in depth to downplaying Azov's neo-Nazism.

Azov has not been "de-Nazified" after it was further integrated into the Ukrainian military in 2022, as Azov and some media outlets claim. Much of Azov's leadership has been in the group since 2014 and has demonstrated neo-Nazi ties. Azov's press officer and the head of Azov's military school run social media accounts adorned with neo-Nazi symbolism. Azov's logo even contains the Wolfsangel, a neo-Nazi symbol. Not only is Azov a neo-Nazi military unit, but Western media outlets are complicit in whitewashing that fact, commiting journalistic malpractice of the highest order.

As Lev Golkin discussed in one article, Azov has a symbiotic relationship with Putin. Azov's existence allows Putin to justify his illegal invasion by claiming he is "de-Nazifying" Ukraine. Putin's rhetoric allows Azov to further justify its existence to Western countries based on its opposition to Putin, and receive more support from the Ukrainian government. This gives Putin even more rhetorical weight to justify his invasion of Ukraine, and so the cycle continues.

The losers of this dynamic are sure to be Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. In 2017, according to one report, Ukraine had more incidents of antisemitism than all other post-Soviet countries combined. In 2018, Nazi groups and police marched door to door, terrorizing Roma people. Among the groups marching was C14, a neo-Nazi organization which has in the past received funding from the Ukrainian government.

Additionally, the presence of neo-Nazi ideology in the Ukrainian government goes beyond Azov and similar gangs. Ukraine's parliament recently quoted Stepan Bandera in a statement. Ukraine's Ministry of Defense posted a picture of a Ukrainian soldier wearing a patch with neo-Nazi symbols before deleting it after outcry. A Ukrainian general was filmed threatening to destroy Jews.

By integrating Azov into its armed forces and outlawing the denigration of Holocaust perpetrators, the Ukrainian government has shown it is willing to tolerate neo-Nazi extremism, which directly threatens Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. If the U.S. cares about its stated commitment to human rights, it should immediately re-evaluate its support for Ukraine and stop ignoring the radicalization of Ukraine's military. Once a government starts employing neo-Nazis, it loses all moral superiority.

What Mothra sees:

Quote:

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!!!!ILLEGAL INVASION!!1!

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Even if I engaged in this Russian propagated fantasy of a big Nazi problem, why is it any of Russia's business? They weren't even a threat to Russians until Putin invaded Crimea. Russia doesn't want a strong independent Ukraine, so they manufacture this crisis to marginalize Ukrainian nationalist sentiment. All part of the info war, until Russia decided to make it a real one.
Western media recognized it as a problem prior to the war. It's the denial since 2022 that is a form of propaganda. Putin didn't start the Donbas war by annexing Crimea. He sees the Nazis as a tool of US policy, and with good reason. It's what they have been to varying degrees ever since WWII.
Complete and utter BS, Sam. Putin started the Donbas War when Seperatists and Russian soldiers started occupying government buildings in Donetsk and Luhansk, aided by his forward positions in Crimea.

When you wonder how some of the Trumpers can excuse his actions with creative interpretation of events or whataboutism (as I do), try some reflection on Putin and your apologetics for him. It's eerily similar.

The Nazi problem is an overinflated fantasy of Putin and some of the liberal U.S. media swipes (like the White Supremacy problem). But for certain with both, the "Nazi threat" was no more of a threat to Russia than our "White Supremacy problem" is a threat to Canada.
And the separatists would have done that regardless. It's debatable whether Ukrainian Nazi groups would be a threat on their own. What you keep ignoring is that they're being armed, trained, and encouraged (if not directed) by the CIA. The last time that happened they ran a decade-long insurgency, committed hundreds of assassinations and terrorists acts, infiltrated the Soviet military, and massacred over a hundred thousand people.
Wait, are you tying WW2 Soviet resistance activities to the CIA?
Immediately post-war.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ATL Bear said:

Realitybites said:

ATL Bear said:

]Wait, are you tying WW2 Soviet resistance activities to the CIA?


Public school history class about World War II would have you believe that the Germans were Nazis, part of the Axis, and the enemy. While this is technically true, it does not come anywhere near capturing the complicated relationship that the west had with Nazis before, during, and after the war.

For example, here is a picture of a Nazi party meeting.in 1939.

&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=e995bb97c6f68518928e7117f6e0685a485598872758ef5c7c6bb0bc8b8782fb&ipo=images

...in Madison Square Garden, in New York.

And another.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fs.yimg.com%2Fny%2Fapi%2Fres%2F1.2%2FpAoNt1kltlt_unsJ7gIX_Q--%2FYXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTEyMDA7aD05MDA-%2Fhttps%3A%2F%2Fmedia.zenfs.com%2Fen%2Finsider_articles_922%2F6d5cb1ab61ba8c210e06987416ff3645&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=bb1171f75bf68a43068165b8552b68cebd691cc132ef6148f785b17584a29f39&ipo=images

Both Joe Kennedy Sr and Prescott Bush were Nazi sympathizers.

You can go further and look into how many NATO secretary generals were either former Nazi officers or children of prominent party members.

These were people at the highest levels of western society, not some incel in a cabin in Montana. It isn't as if these people and their ideology simply went away after VE day. A pretty good case could be made that they simply replaced national socialism with international socialism and that is what we are living with today.
Feel free to weave whatever web of intrigue you want, but you should know you're classified as a Nazi. Any sort of hard nationalism that has tinges of anti-immigrant and anti-LGBTQ is a Nazi, at least that's what the argument is that's being put forth by Sam and Putin on their campaign to "de-nazify" Ukraine.
That's a gross mischaracterization. I'm not arguing anything of the kind.
ATL Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

What it says:

Quote:

The dangers of ignoring Ukraine's neo-Nazis

Kyiv's tolerance for fascist extremism should cause the U.S. government to re-evaluate its support of Ukraine.

By Ben Choucroun
Published October 13, 2023

The name "Azov Brigade" should be recognizable to anyone who follows the conflict in Ukraine. To Ukraine, it is a key military unit composed of motivated fighters who have resisted Russian aggression. To Russia, the Azov Brigade is a neo-Nazi terrorist formation. Both of these narratives contain elements of truth. Azov Battalion is an important part of Ukraine's war effort, and it is a neo-Nazi formation that has committed numerous atrocities. The U.S.'s continuing military support for Ukraine despite its neo-Nazi problem and the whitewashing of the Azov by media outlets are fueling racism both in and outside of Ukraine.

The origins of the Azov Battalion lie in the 2014 Euromaidan Revolution, in which demonstrators overthrew the Ukrainian government. The revolutionaries were led by Andriy Parubiy, the founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (renamed Svoboda). After the revolution, members of Svoboda were appointed to key government positions, including minister of defense, head of the general prosecutor's office and deputy prime minister.

After Euromaidan, Russian-speaking territories in the eastern region of Donbas launched a rebellion against the far-right government in Kyiv. Volunteer militias, including the Azov Battalion (which was formed by the neo-Nazi Patriot of Ukraine party), arose to fight the rebels.

Between 2014 and 2022, as the war in Donbas dragged on, Ukraine's far-right government continuously passed laws glorifying Nazi collaborators. In 2018, then-president Petro Poroshenko created a national holiday for Stepan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator whose soldiers murdered up to 100,000 people during the Holocaust. Poroshenko even made it a criminal offense to denigrate Bandera's organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, and a government-funded museum opened an exhibit in their honor.

Unsurprisingly, Azov only grew. Between 2014 and 2022, Azov trained neo-Nazi terrorists and even recruited Brazilian fascists to fight in Ukraine. They were banned from Facebook for racist and antisemitic content (they titled one page "Gas Chambers"). Yet, they were described by Poroshenko as "our best warriors," and Vadim Troyan, a veteran of the Azov Battalion and Patriot of Ukraine, was appointed to be deputy minister of the interior, putting a neo-Nazi in charge of Ukraine's National Police.

When Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Azov gained more prominence. The unit garnered praise from the Ukrainian government and was further integrated into the Ukrainian military, being expanded from a regiment into a brigade. Some media outlets changed the way they describe Azov; German state-owned media outlet Deutsche Welle, which once described Azov as a neo-Nazi regiment, soon began labeling allegations of neo-Nazism as Russian propaganda. The BBC followed a similar line, moving from investigating Azov's neo-Nazi ideology in depth to downplaying Azov's neo-Nazism.

Azov has not been "de-Nazified" after it was further integrated into the Ukrainian military in 2022, as Azov and some media outlets claim. Much of Azov's leadership has been in the group since 2014 and has demonstrated neo-Nazi ties. Azov's press officer and the head of Azov's military school run social media accounts adorned with neo-Nazi symbolism. Azov's logo even contains the Wolfsangel, a neo-Nazi symbol. Not only is Azov a neo-Nazi military unit, but Western media outlets are complicit in whitewashing that fact, commiting journalistic malpractice of the highest order.

As Lev Golkin discussed in one article, Azov has a symbiotic relationship with Putin. Azov's existence allows Putin to justify his illegal invasion by claiming he is "de-Nazifying" Ukraine. Putin's rhetoric allows Azov to further justify its existence to Western countries based on its opposition to Putin, and receive more support from the Ukrainian government. This gives Putin even more rhetorical weight to justify his invasion of Ukraine, and so the cycle continues.

The losers of this dynamic are sure to be Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. In 2017, according to one report, Ukraine had more incidents of antisemitism than all other post-Soviet countries combined. In 2018, Nazi groups and police marched door to door, terrorizing Roma people. Among the groups marching was C14, a neo-Nazi organization which has in the past received funding from the Ukrainian government.

Additionally, the presence of neo-Nazi ideology in the Ukrainian government goes beyond Azov and similar gangs. Ukraine's parliament recently quoted Stepan Bandera in a statement. Ukraine's Ministry of Defense posted a picture of a Ukrainian soldier wearing a patch with neo-Nazi symbols before deleting it after outcry. A Ukrainian general was filmed threatening to destroy Jews.

By integrating Azov into its armed forces and outlawing the denigration of Holocaust perpetrators, the Ukrainian government has shown it is willing to tolerate neo-Nazi extremism, which directly threatens Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. If the U.S. cares about its stated commitment to human rights, it should immediately re-evaluate its support for Ukraine and stop ignoring the radicalization of Ukraine's military. Once a government starts employing neo-Nazis, it loses all moral superiority.

What Mothra sees:

Quote:

...

...

...
...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

!!!!ILLEGAL INVASION!!1!

....

...

...

Even if I engaged in this Russian propagated fantasy of a big Nazi problem, why is it any of Russia's business? They weren't even a threat to Russians until Putin invaded Crimea. Russia doesn't want a strong independent Ukraine, so they manufacture this crisis to marginalize Ukrainian nationalist sentiment. All part of the info war, until Russia decided to make it a real one.
Western media recognized it as a problem prior to the war. It's the denial since 2022 that is a form of propaganda. Putin didn't start the Donbas war by annexing Crimea. He sees the Nazis as a tool of US policy, and with good reason. It's what they have been to varying degrees ever since WWII.
Complete and utter BS, Sam. Putin started the Donbas War when Seperatists and Russian soldiers started occupying government buildings in Donetsk and Luhansk, aided by his forward positions in Crimea.

When you wonder how some of the Trumpers can excuse his actions with creative interpretation of events or whataboutism (as I do), try some reflection on Putin and your apologetics for him. It's eerily similar.

The Nazi problem is an overinflated fantasy of Putin and some of the liberal U.S. media swipes (like the White Supremacy problem). But for certain with both, the "Nazi threat" was no more of a threat to Russia than our "White Supremacy problem" is a threat to Canada.
And the separatists would have done that regardless. It's debatable whether Ukrainian Nazi groups would be a threat on their own. What you keep ignoring is that they're being armed, trained, and encouraged (if not directed) by the CIA. The last time that happened they ran a decade-long insurgency, committed hundreds of assassinations and terrorists acts, infiltrated the Soviet military, and massacred over a hundred thousand people.
Wait, are you tying WW2 Soviet resistance activities to the CIA?
Immediately post-war.
That's the same people, under the OSS. Didn't work out, so I'm not sure the germane nature of this, or you're attempting a huge stretch. It goes back to my Werner von Braun comment. Most of these folks ended up defecting and needing our protection in exchange for some attempts at Intel or some other resource or skill they had.

This has to be viewed in the context of the era. Both sides were enticing (or kidnapping) a bunch of Nazi Germans, including some unsavory ones, all for the purpose of strategic advantage. If you want something more relevant to today's issues, it was during this time that Stalin forcibly removed the Tartars from Crimea and Eastern Ukraine and replaced them with ethnic Russians.
ATL Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Realitybites said:

ATL Bear said:

]Wait, are you tying WW2 Soviet resistance activities to the CIA?


Public school history class about World War II would have you believe that the Germans were Nazis, part of the Axis, and the enemy. While this is technically true, it does not come anywhere near capturing the complicated relationship that the west had with Nazis before, during, and after the war.

For example, here is a picture of a Nazi party meeting.in 1939.

&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=e995bb97c6f68518928e7117f6e0685a485598872758ef5c7c6bb0bc8b8782fb&ipo=images

...in Madison Square Garden, in New York.

And another.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fs.yimg.com%2Fny%2Fapi%2Fres%2F1.2%2FpAoNt1kltlt_unsJ7gIX_Q--%2FYXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTEyMDA7aD05MDA-%2Fhttps%3A%2F%2Fmedia.zenfs.com%2Fen%2Finsider_articles_922%2F6d5cb1ab61ba8c210e06987416ff3645&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=bb1171f75bf68a43068165b8552b68cebd691cc132ef6148f785b17584a29f39&ipo=images

Both Joe Kennedy Sr and Prescott Bush were Nazi sympathizers.

You can go further and look into how many NATO secretary generals were either former Nazi officers or children of prominent party members.

These were people at the highest levels of western society, not some incel in a cabin in Montana. It isn't as if these people and their ideology simply went away after VE day. A pretty good case could be made that they simply replaced national socialism with international socialism and that is what we are living with today.
Feel free to weave whatever web of intrigue you want, but you should know you're classified as a Nazi. Any sort of hard nationalism that has tinges of anti-immigrant and anti-LGBTQ is a Nazi, at least that's what the argument is that's being put forth by Sam and Putin on their campaign to "de-nazify" Ukraine.
That's a gross mischaracterization. I'm not arguing anything of the kind.
You may not think you are, but it's exactly what you're doing. This is broad brushing Ukrainian nationalism as Nazi extremism.
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Realitybites said:

ATL Bear said:

]Wait, are you tying WW2 Soviet resistance activities to the CIA?


Public school history class about World War II would have you believe that the Germans were Nazis, part of the Axis, and the enemy. While this is technically true, it does not come anywhere near capturing the complicated relationship that the west had with Nazis before, during, and after the war.

For example, here is a picture of a Nazi party meeting.in 1939.

&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=e995bb97c6f68518928e7117f6e0685a485598872758ef5c7c6bb0bc8b8782fb&ipo=images

...in Madison Square Garden, in New York.

And another.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fs.yimg.com%2Fny%2Fapi%2Fres%2F1.2%2FpAoNt1kltlt_unsJ7gIX_Q--%2FYXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTEyMDA7aD05MDA-%2Fhttps%3A%2F%2Fmedia.zenfs.com%2Fen%2Finsider_articles_922%2F6d5cb1ab61ba8c210e06987416ff3645&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=bb1171f75bf68a43068165b8552b68cebd691cc132ef6148f785b17584a29f39&ipo=images

Both Joe Kennedy Sr and Prescott Bush were Nazi sympathizers.

You can go further and look into how many NATO secretary generals were either former Nazi officers or children of prominent party members.

These were people at the highest levels of western society, not some incel in a cabin in Montana. It isn't as if these people and their ideology simply went away after VE day. A pretty good case could be made that they simply replaced national socialism with international socialism and that is what we are living with today.
Feel free to weave whatever web of intrigue you want, but you should know you're classified as a Nazi. Any sort of hard nationalism that has tinges of anti-immigrant and anti-LGBTQ is a Nazi, at least that's what the argument is that's being put forth by Sam and Putin on their campaign to "de-nazify" Ukraine.
That's a gross mischaracterization. I'm not arguing anything of the kind.
This is broad brushing Ukrainian nationalism as Nazi extremism.



Why not? Our own rulers paint America first nationalism as just another dangerous form of Nazism.


Again…DC and Moscow both view nationalism as a threat…very interesting
ATL Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Realitybites said:

ATL Bear said:

]Wait, are you tying WW2 Soviet resistance activities to the CIA?


Public school history class about World War II would have you believe that the Germans were Nazis, part of the Axis, and the enemy. While this is technically true, it does not come anywhere near capturing the complicated relationship that the west had with Nazis before, during, and after the war.

For example, here is a picture of a Nazi party meeting.in 1939.

&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=e995bb97c6f68518928e7117f6e0685a485598872758ef5c7c6bb0bc8b8782fb&ipo=images

...in Madison Square Garden, in New York.

And another.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fs.yimg.com%2Fny%2Fapi%2Fres%2F1.2%2FpAoNt1kltlt_unsJ7gIX_Q--%2FYXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTEyMDA7aD05MDA-%2Fhttps%3A%2F%2Fmedia.zenfs.com%2Fen%2Finsider_articles_922%2F6d5cb1ab61ba8c210e06987416ff3645&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=bb1171f75bf68a43068165b8552b68cebd691cc132ef6148f785b17584a29f39&ipo=images

Both Joe Kennedy Sr and Prescott Bush were Nazi sympathizers.

You can go further and look into how many NATO secretary generals were either former Nazi officers or children of prominent party members.

These were people at the highest levels of western society, not some incel in a cabin in Montana. It isn't as if these people and their ideology simply went away after VE day. A pretty good case could be made that they simply replaced national socialism with international socialism and that is what we are living with today.
Feel free to weave whatever web of intrigue you want, but you should know you're classified as a Nazi. Any sort of hard nationalism that has tinges of anti-immigrant and anti-LGBTQ is a Nazi, at least that's what the argument is that's being put forth by Sam and Putin on their campaign to "de-nazify" Ukraine.
That's a gross mischaracterization. I'm not arguing anything of the kind.
This is broad brushing Ukrainian nationalism as Nazi extremism.



Why not? Our own rulers paint America first nationalism as just another dangerous form of Nazism.


Again…DC and Moscow both view nationalism as a threat…very interesting
Moscow only views other people's nationalism as a threat. They love them some Russian nationalism.
TexasScientist
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Mothra said:

Mafia Bear said:

Mothra said:

Meh. I am no fan of a proxy war with Russia and think the Biden administration did a hell of a lot to antagonize Putin, but this guy is a piece of **** little despot. There's so much blood on his hand over the years. And quite frankly, his initial statements, prove that this was nothing more than a landgrab buy an imperialistic little dictator.

I am not sure what Tucker's intentions were in interviewing him, but this did not make either look good. Putin came across as the dictator he is, and Tucker sullied what semblance of a reputation he had by interviewing him.


Could not disagree more. That is a shocking take. The fact that you think Russia is imperialistic by wanting to protect itself against NATO advancement on its own border is Lindsey Graham-ish level. Here are some more balanced reflections:




The only shocking take is your own. It's really at nutjob level. You really have drunk the Kool-Aid.

I've been against our involvement in the war from the beginning, and have regularly criticized this incompetent admin for its bellicose talk on letting Ukraine join NATO. I've also said we should have offered the security assurances Russia was seeking.

But let's be clear about why Russia invaded. It wasn't merely because Putin thought Ukraine was a threat or would be a threat. It's because Putin - as he said during the interview - has imperialistic ambitions. As he said, Ukraine was once apart of mother Russia and he desired to have it apart of mother Russia again. Those were his own words. That is not ok, under any circumstance. He's got thousands of Ukrainians and Russians blood on his hands because of it.

Putin is a smart, calculating, steely cold blooded killer. We shouldn't be in a proxy war with Russia and I put most of the fault on the Biden admin for that but trying to make Putin a sympathetic figure is a terrible look. While I am an advocate for peace with Russia and trying to figure out a way to end this war, Conservatives should not be cozying up to despots. Period. End of story.
Yet you would allow him to overrun Ukraine, which would only emboldend him in his imperialistic vision regarding Poland and other former Soviet satellites.
TexasScientist
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Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

Mafia Bear said:

Mothra said:

Meh. I am no fan of a proxy war with Russia and think the Biden administration did a hell of a lot to antagonize Putin, but this guy is a piece of **** little despot. There's so much blood on his hand over the years. And quite frankly, his initial statements, prove that this was nothing more than a landgrab buy an imperialistic little dictator.

I am not sure what Tucker's intentions were in interviewing him, but this did not make either look good. Putin came across as the dictator he is, and Tucker sullied what semblance of a reputation he had by interviewing him.


Could not disagree more. That is a shocking take. The fact that you think Russia is imperialistic by wanting to protect itself against NATO advancement on its own border is Lindsey Graham-ish level. Here are some more balanced reflections:




The only shocking take is your own. It's really at nutjob level. You really have drunk the Kool-Aid.

I've been against our involvement in the war from the beginning, and have regularly criticized this incompetent admin for its bellicose talk on letting Ukraine join NATO. I've also said we should have offered the security assurances Russia was seeking.

But let's be clear about why Russia invaded. It wasn't merely because Putin thought Ukraine was a threat or would be a threat. It's because Putin - as he said during the interview - has imperialistic ambitions. As he said, Ukraine was once apart of mother Russia and he desired to have it apart of mother Russia again. Those were his own words. That is not ok, under any circumstance. He's got thousands of Ukrainians and Russians blood on his hands because of it.

Putin is a smart, calculating, steely cold blooded killer. We shouldn't be in a proxy war with Russia and I put most of the fault on the Biden admin for that but trying to make Putin a sympathetic figure is a terrible look. Conservatives should not be cozying up to despots.
I expected this reaction from a lot of people, but not so much from you. Sounds like you watched the first 20 minutes and tuned out, am I right?
Tucker is a Putin stooge.
KaiBear
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TexasScientist said:

Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

Mafia Bear said:

Mothra said:

Meh. I am no fan of a proxy war with Russia and think the Biden administration did a hell of a lot to antagonize Putin, but this guy is a piece of **** little despot. There's so much blood on his hand over the years. And quite frankly, his initial statements, prove that this was nothing more than a landgrab buy an imperialistic little dictator.

I am not sure what Tucker's intentions were in interviewing him, but this did not make either look good. Putin came across as the dictator he is, and Tucker sullied what semblance of a reputation he had by interviewing him.


Could not disagree more. That is a shocking take. The fact that you think Russia is imperialistic by wanting to protect itself against NATO advancement on its own border is Lindsey Graham-ish level. Here are some more balanced reflections:




The only shocking take is your own. It's really at nutjob level. You really have drunk the Kool-Aid.

I've been against our involvement in the war from the beginning, and have regularly criticized this incompetent admin for its bellicose talk on letting Ukraine join NATO. I've also said we should have offered the security assurances Russia was seeking.

But let's be clear about why Russia invaded. It wasn't merely because Putin thought Ukraine was a threat or would be a threat. It's because Putin - as he said during the interview - has imperialistic ambitions. As he said, Ukraine was once apart of mother Russia and he desired to have it apart of mother Russia again. Those were his own words. That is not ok, under any circumstance. He's got thousands of Ukrainians and Russians blood on his hands because of it.

Putin is a smart, calculating, steely cold blooded killer. We shouldn't be in a proxy war with Russia and I put most of the fault on the Biden admin for that but trying to make Putin a sympathetic figure is a terrible look. Conservatives should not be cozying up to despots.
I expected this reaction from a lot of people, but not so much from you. Sounds like you watched the first 20 minutes and tuned out, am I right?
Tucker is a Putin stooge.


Hardly

Tucker is merely the most successful 'talking head' of all time.

Has become extremely wealthy playing to his ever increasing audience world wide.

The dork has more influence than any politician outside of the president.

Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

What it says:

Quote:

The dangers of ignoring Ukraine's neo-Nazis

Kyiv's tolerance for fascist extremism should cause the U.S. government to re-evaluate its support of Ukraine.

By Ben Choucroun
Published October 13, 2023

The name "Azov Brigade" should be recognizable to anyone who follows the conflict in Ukraine. To Ukraine, it is a key military unit composed of motivated fighters who have resisted Russian aggression. To Russia, the Azov Brigade is a neo-Nazi terrorist formation. Both of these narratives contain elements of truth. Azov Battalion is an important part of Ukraine's war effort, and it is a neo-Nazi formation that has committed numerous atrocities. The U.S.'s continuing military support for Ukraine despite its neo-Nazi problem and the whitewashing of the Azov by media outlets are fueling racism both in and outside of Ukraine.

The origins of the Azov Battalion lie in the 2014 Euromaidan Revolution, in which demonstrators overthrew the Ukrainian government. The revolutionaries were led by Andriy Parubiy, the founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (renamed Svoboda). After the revolution, members of Svoboda were appointed to key government positions, including minister of defense, head of the general prosecutor's office and deputy prime minister.

After Euromaidan, Russian-speaking territories in the eastern region of Donbas launched a rebellion against the far-right government in Kyiv. Volunteer militias, including the Azov Battalion (which was formed by the neo-Nazi Patriot of Ukraine party), arose to fight the rebels.

Between 2014 and 2022, as the war in Donbas dragged on, Ukraine's far-right government continuously passed laws glorifying Nazi collaborators. In 2018, then-president Petro Poroshenko created a national holiday for Stepan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator whose soldiers murdered up to 100,000 people during the Holocaust. Poroshenko even made it a criminal offense to denigrate Bandera's organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, and a government-funded museum opened an exhibit in their honor.

Unsurprisingly, Azov only grew. Between 2014 and 2022, Azov trained neo-Nazi terrorists and even recruited Brazilian fascists to fight in Ukraine. They were banned from Facebook for racist and antisemitic content (they titled one page "Gas Chambers"). Yet, they were described by Poroshenko as "our best warriors," and Vadim Troyan, a veteran of the Azov Battalion and Patriot of Ukraine, was appointed to be deputy minister of the interior, putting a neo-Nazi in charge of Ukraine's National Police.

When Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Azov gained more prominence. The unit garnered praise from the Ukrainian government and was further integrated into the Ukrainian military, being expanded from a regiment into a brigade. Some media outlets changed the way they describe Azov; German state-owned media outlet Deutsche Welle, which once described Azov as a neo-Nazi regiment, soon began labeling allegations of neo-Nazism as Russian propaganda. The BBC followed a similar line, moving from investigating Azov's neo-Nazi ideology in depth to downplaying Azov's neo-Nazism.

Azov has not been "de-Nazified" after it was further integrated into the Ukrainian military in 2022, as Azov and some media outlets claim. Much of Azov's leadership has been in the group since 2014 and has demonstrated neo-Nazi ties. Azov's press officer and the head of Azov's military school run social media accounts adorned with neo-Nazi symbolism. Azov's logo even contains the Wolfsangel, a neo-Nazi symbol. Not only is Azov a neo-Nazi military unit, but Western media outlets are complicit in whitewashing that fact, commiting journalistic malpractice of the highest order.

As Lev Golkin discussed in one article, Azov has a symbiotic relationship with Putin. Azov's existence allows Putin to justify his illegal invasion by claiming he is "de-Nazifying" Ukraine. Putin's rhetoric allows Azov to further justify its existence to Western countries based on its opposition to Putin, and receive more support from the Ukrainian government. This gives Putin even more rhetorical weight to justify his invasion of Ukraine, and so the cycle continues.

The losers of this dynamic are sure to be Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. In 2017, according to one report, Ukraine had more incidents of antisemitism than all other post-Soviet countries combined. In 2018, Nazi groups and police marched door to door, terrorizing Roma people. Among the groups marching was C14, a neo-Nazi organization which has in the past received funding from the Ukrainian government.

Additionally, the presence of neo-Nazi ideology in the Ukrainian government goes beyond Azov and similar gangs. Ukraine's parliament recently quoted Stepan Bandera in a statement. Ukraine's Ministry of Defense posted a picture of a Ukrainian soldier wearing a patch with neo-Nazi symbols before deleting it after outcry. A Ukrainian general was filmed threatening to destroy Jews.

By integrating Azov into its armed forces and outlawing the denigration of Holocaust perpetrators, the Ukrainian government has shown it is willing to tolerate neo-Nazi extremism, which directly threatens Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. If the U.S. cares about its stated commitment to human rights, it should immediately re-evaluate its support for Ukraine and stop ignoring the radicalization of Ukraine's military. Once a government starts employing neo-Nazis, it loses all moral superiority.

What Mothra sees:

Quote:

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!!!!ILLEGAL INVASION!!1!

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Even if I engaged in this Russian propagated fantasy of a big Nazi problem, why is it any of Russia's business? They weren't even a threat to Russians until Putin invaded Crimea. Russia doesn't want a strong independent Ukraine, so they manufacture this crisis to marginalize Ukrainian nationalist sentiment. All part of the info war, until Russia decided to make it a real one.
Western media recognized it as a problem prior to the war. It's the denial since 2022 that is a form of propaganda. Putin didn't start the Donbas war by annexing Crimea. He sees the Nazis as a tool of US policy, and with good reason. It's what they have been to varying degrees ever since WWII.
Complete and utter BS, Sam. Putin started the Donbas War when Seperatists and Russian soldiers started occupying government buildings in Donetsk and Luhansk, aided by his forward positions in Crimea.

When you wonder how some of the Trumpers can excuse his actions with creative interpretation of events or whataboutism (as I do), try some reflection on Putin and your apologetics for him. It's eerily similar.

The Nazi problem is an overinflated fantasy of Putin and some of the liberal U.S. media swipes (like the White Supremacy problem). But for certain with both, the "Nazi threat" was no more of a threat to Russia than our "White Supremacy problem" is a threat to Canada.
And the separatists would have done that regardless. It's debatable whether Ukrainian Nazi groups would be a threat on their own. What you keep ignoring is that they're being armed, trained, and encouraged (if not directed) by the CIA. The last time that happened they ran a decade-long insurgency, committed hundreds of assassinations and terrorists acts, infiltrated the Soviet military, and massacred over a hundred thousand people.
Wait, are you tying WW2 Soviet resistance activities to the CIA?
Immediately post-war.
That's the same people, under the OSS. Didn't work out, so I'm not sure the germane nature of this, or you're attempting a huge stretch. It goes back to my Werner von Braun comment. Most of these folks ended up defecting and needing our protection in exchange for some attempts at Intel or some other resource or skill they had.

This has to be viewed in the context of the era. Both sides were enticing (or kidnapping) a bunch of Nazi Germans, including some unsavory ones, all for the purpose of strategic advantage. If you want something more relevant to today's issues, it was during this time that Stalin forcibly removed the Tartars from Crimea and Eastern Ukraine and replaced them with ethnic Russians.
The collaboration "worked out" in the sense that it was a big long-term investment and a big thorn in Russia's side. It may not have produced much useful intelligence, but that's beside the point. I don't know why you bring up the emigres' need for protection, as if that's supposed to excuse their extremism or our support of it. It's not as if protecting them was the purpose of the operation. The von Braun comparison likewise misses the point. The problem isn't simply that these people escaped justice. It's that they were completely unrepentant and were still pursuing the same goals after the war.

The CIA has been remarkably honest about this at times. They were worried about the ideology of these groups from the beginning. The more we came to rely on them, the more we tended to "blur the record" and make excuses for them. After a few years, the official line evolved into something very much like yours -- they were patriots first and foremost, and they only sided with the Nazis because of opposition to Russia.

It wasn't true then, and it isn't true now. That's not to say there aren't true Ukrainian patriots. But there's no reason to let racist fanatics piggyback their agenda on top of Ukrainian nationalism. You're the one broad-brushing them together when you deny history and present-day reality in order to give the bad guys a pass.
ATL Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

What it says:

Quote:

The dangers of ignoring Ukraine's neo-Nazis

Kyiv's tolerance for fascist extremism should cause the U.S. government to re-evaluate its support of Ukraine.

By Ben Choucroun
Published October 13, 2023

The name "Azov Brigade" should be recognizable to anyone who follows the conflict in Ukraine. To Ukraine, it is a key military unit composed of motivated fighters who have resisted Russian aggression. To Russia, the Azov Brigade is a neo-Nazi terrorist formation. Both of these narratives contain elements of truth. Azov Battalion is an important part of Ukraine's war effort, and it is a neo-Nazi formation that has committed numerous atrocities. The U.S.'s continuing military support for Ukraine despite its neo-Nazi problem and the whitewashing of the Azov by media outlets are fueling racism both in and outside of Ukraine.

The origins of the Azov Battalion lie in the 2014 Euromaidan Revolution, in which demonstrators overthrew the Ukrainian government. The revolutionaries were led by Andriy Parubiy, the founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (renamed Svoboda). After the revolution, members of Svoboda were appointed to key government positions, including minister of defense, head of the general prosecutor's office and deputy prime minister.

After Euromaidan, Russian-speaking territories in the eastern region of Donbas launched a rebellion against the far-right government in Kyiv. Volunteer militias, including the Azov Battalion (which was formed by the neo-Nazi Patriot of Ukraine party), arose to fight the rebels.

Between 2014 and 2022, as the war in Donbas dragged on, Ukraine's far-right government continuously passed laws glorifying Nazi collaborators. In 2018, then-president Petro Poroshenko created a national holiday for Stepan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator whose soldiers murdered up to 100,000 people during the Holocaust. Poroshenko even made it a criminal offense to denigrate Bandera's organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, and a government-funded museum opened an exhibit in their honor.

Unsurprisingly, Azov only grew. Between 2014 and 2022, Azov trained neo-Nazi terrorists and even recruited Brazilian fascists to fight in Ukraine. They were banned from Facebook for racist and antisemitic content (they titled one page "Gas Chambers"). Yet, they were described by Poroshenko as "our best warriors," and Vadim Troyan, a veteran of the Azov Battalion and Patriot of Ukraine, was appointed to be deputy minister of the interior, putting a neo-Nazi in charge of Ukraine's National Police.

When Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Azov gained more prominence. The unit garnered praise from the Ukrainian government and was further integrated into the Ukrainian military, being expanded from a regiment into a brigade. Some media outlets changed the way they describe Azov; German state-owned media outlet Deutsche Welle, which once described Azov as a neo-Nazi regiment, soon began labeling allegations of neo-Nazism as Russian propaganda. The BBC followed a similar line, moving from investigating Azov's neo-Nazi ideology in depth to downplaying Azov's neo-Nazism.

Azov has not been "de-Nazified" after it was further integrated into the Ukrainian military in 2022, as Azov and some media outlets claim. Much of Azov's leadership has been in the group since 2014 and has demonstrated neo-Nazi ties. Azov's press officer and the head of Azov's military school run social media accounts adorned with neo-Nazi symbolism. Azov's logo even contains the Wolfsangel, a neo-Nazi symbol. Not only is Azov a neo-Nazi military unit, but Western media outlets are complicit in whitewashing that fact, commiting journalistic malpractice of the highest order.

As Lev Golkin discussed in one article, Azov has a symbiotic relationship with Putin. Azov's existence allows Putin to justify his illegal invasion by claiming he is "de-Nazifying" Ukraine. Putin's rhetoric allows Azov to further justify its existence to Western countries based on its opposition to Putin, and receive more support from the Ukrainian government. This gives Putin even more rhetorical weight to justify his invasion of Ukraine, and so the cycle continues.

The losers of this dynamic are sure to be Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. In 2017, according to one report, Ukraine had more incidents of antisemitism than all other post-Soviet countries combined. In 2018, Nazi groups and police marched door to door, terrorizing Roma people. Among the groups marching was C14, a neo-Nazi organization which has in the past received funding from the Ukrainian government.

Additionally, the presence of neo-Nazi ideology in the Ukrainian government goes beyond Azov and similar gangs. Ukraine's parliament recently quoted Stepan Bandera in a statement. Ukraine's Ministry of Defense posted a picture of a Ukrainian soldier wearing a patch with neo-Nazi symbols before deleting it after outcry. A Ukrainian general was filmed threatening to destroy Jews.

By integrating Azov into its armed forces and outlawing the denigration of Holocaust perpetrators, the Ukrainian government has shown it is willing to tolerate neo-Nazi extremism, which directly threatens Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. If the U.S. cares about its stated commitment to human rights, it should immediately re-evaluate its support for Ukraine and stop ignoring the radicalization of Ukraine's military. Once a government starts employing neo-Nazis, it loses all moral superiority.

What Mothra sees:

Quote:

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...

...

...

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!!!!ILLEGAL INVASION!!1!

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Even if I engaged in this Russian propagated fantasy of a big Nazi problem, why is it any of Russia's business? They weren't even a threat to Russians until Putin invaded Crimea. Russia doesn't want a strong independent Ukraine, so they manufacture this crisis to marginalize Ukrainian nationalist sentiment. All part of the info war, until Russia decided to make it a real one.
Western media recognized it as a problem prior to the war. It's the denial since 2022 that is a form of propaganda. Putin didn't start the Donbas war by annexing Crimea. He sees the Nazis as a tool of US policy, and with good reason. It's what they have been to varying degrees ever since WWII.
Complete and utter BS, Sam. Putin started the Donbas War when Seperatists and Russian soldiers started occupying government buildings in Donetsk and Luhansk, aided by his forward positions in Crimea.

When you wonder how some of the Trumpers can excuse his actions with creative interpretation of events or whataboutism (as I do), try some reflection on Putin and your apologetics for him. It's eerily similar.

The Nazi problem is an overinflated fantasy of Putin and some of the liberal U.S. media swipes (like the White Supremacy problem). But for certain with both, the "Nazi threat" was no more of a threat to Russia than our "White Supremacy problem" is a threat to Canada.
And the separatists would have done that regardless. It's debatable whether Ukrainian Nazi groups would be a threat on their own. What you keep ignoring is that they're being armed, trained, and encouraged (if not directed) by the CIA. The last time that happened they ran a decade-long insurgency, committed hundreds of assassinations and terrorists acts, infiltrated the Soviet military, and massacred over a hundred thousand people.
Wait, are you tying WW2 Soviet resistance activities to the CIA?
Immediately post-war.
That's the same people, under the OSS. Didn't work out, so I'm not sure the germane nature of this, or you're attempting a huge stretch. It goes back to my Werner von Braun comment. Most of these folks ended up defecting and needing our protection in exchange for some attempts at Intel or some other resource or skill they had.

This has to be viewed in the context of the era. Both sides were enticing (or kidnapping) a bunch of Nazi Germans, including some unsavory ones, all for the purpose of strategic advantage. If you want something more relevant to today's issues, it was during this time that Stalin forcibly removed the Tartars from Crimea and Eastern Ukraine and replaced them with ethnic Russians.
The collaboration "worked out" in the sense that it was a big long-term investment and a big thorn in Russia's side. It may not have produced much useful intelligence, but that's beside the point. I don't know why you bring up the emigres' need for protection, as if that's supposed to excuse their extremism or our support of it. It's not as if protecting them was the purpose of the operation. The von Braun comparison likewise misses the point. The problem isn't simply that these people escaped justice. It's that they were completely unrepentant and were still pursuing the same goals after the war.

The CIA has been remarkably honest about this at times. They were worried about the ideology of these groups from the beginning. The more we came to rely on them, the more we tended to "blur the record" and make excuses for them. After a few years, the official line evolved into something very much like yours -- they were patriots first and foremost, and they only sided with the Nazis because of opposition to Russia.

It wasn't true then, and it isn't true now. That's not to say there aren't true Ukrainian patriots. But there's no reason to let racist fanatics piggyback their agenda on top of Ukrainian nationalism. You're the one broad-brushing them together when you deny history and present-day reality in order to give the bad guys a pass.
Actually it was true and even the book chapter you refer to says as such (thanks I did read it). It's also why they were unreliable, and the program never took off. And as if to point out the obvious, it literally says "Ukrainian Nationists". Drawing even further, there is no history to "deny". Not only is there little of any history there, the "Nazi" piece is completely irrelevant to OSS interest, CIA interest, or anything else. The labeling is ONLY relevant to marginalize Ukrainian Nationalism. I'm sure there are bad dudes on all sides, but this is being used as an invasion precursor. Let me draw a similarly absurd equivalent that perhaps will resonate with you. This is like the U.S. using small amounts of mustard gas in Iraq as a WMD justification.

Make no mistake. The real bad guys came rolling in from Russia. This war doesn't happen but for that.
Mothra
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TexasScientist said:

Mothra said:

Mafia Bear said:

Mothra said:

Meh. I am no fan of a proxy war with Russia and think the Biden administration did a hell of a lot to antagonize Putin, but this guy is a piece of **** little despot. There's so much blood on his hand over the years. And quite frankly, his initial statements, prove that this was nothing more than a landgrab buy an imperialistic little dictator.

I am not sure what Tucker's intentions were in interviewing him, but this did not make either look good. Putin came across as the dictator he is, and Tucker sullied what semblance of a reputation he had by interviewing him.


Could not disagree more. That is a shocking take. The fact that you think Russia is imperialistic by wanting to protect itself against NATO advancement on its own border is Lindsey Graham-ish level. Here are some more balanced reflections:




The only shocking take is your own. It's really at nutjob level. You really have drunk the Kool-Aid.

I've been against our involvement in the war from the beginning, and have regularly criticized this incompetent admin for its bellicose talk on letting Ukraine join NATO. I've also said we should have offered the security assurances Russia was seeking.

But let's be clear about why Russia invaded. It wasn't merely because Putin thought Ukraine was a threat or would be a threat. It's because Putin - as he said during the interview - has imperialistic ambitions. As he said, Ukraine was once apart of mother Russia and he desired to have it apart of mother Russia again. Those were his own words. That is not ok, under any circumstance. He's got thousands of Ukrainians and Russians blood on his hands because of it.

Putin is a smart, calculating, steely cold blooded killer. We shouldn't be in a proxy war with Russia and I put most of the fault on the Biden admin for that but trying to make Putin a sympathetic figure is a terrible look. While I am an advocate for peace with Russia and trying to figure out a way to end this war, Conservatives should not be cozying up to despots. Period. End of story.
Yet you would allow him to overrun Ukraine, which would only emboldend him in his imperialistic vision regarding Poland and other former Soviet satellites.
He will eventually anyway, even if we continue to spend billions and countless Ukrainian lives propping up the Ukrainian govt. In case you haven't noticed, the war is not going well at all for Ukraine, with Russia taking territory every single day. All the while, we are using the Ukrainian people as pawns to merely weaken Russia and improve our geopolitical interests. Sorry, I am not willing to do that with peoples' lives as you are. We should be strongly encouraging Ukraine to look for an exit strategy sooner than later.

Russia isn't attacking a NATO country. Hell, they've been at a virtual stalemate with Ukraine for the past 2 years. Are you dumb enough to believe a seriously weakened Russia is going to attack NATO???

Putin may be a despot. But he's not stupid. He's not going to risk a war with NATO when we could wipe him off the map in a conventional war, nor is he going to risk a nuclear retaliation.
Mothra
How long do you want to ignore this user?
KaiBear said:

TexasScientist said:

Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

Mafia Bear said:

Mothra said:

Meh. I am no fan of a proxy war with Russia and think the Biden administration did a hell of a lot to antagonize Putin, but this guy is a piece of **** little despot. There's so much blood on his hand over the years. And quite frankly, his initial statements, prove that this was nothing more than a landgrab buy an imperialistic little dictator.

I am not sure what Tucker's intentions were in interviewing him, but this did not make either look good. Putin came across as the dictator he is, and Tucker sullied what semblance of a reputation he had by interviewing him.


Could not disagree more. That is a shocking take. The fact that you think Russia is imperialistic by wanting to protect itself against NATO advancement on its own border is Lindsey Graham-ish level. Here are some more balanced reflections:




The only shocking take is your own. It's really at nutjob level. You really have drunk the Kool-Aid.

I've been against our involvement in the war from the beginning, and have regularly criticized this incompetent admin for its bellicose talk on letting Ukraine join NATO. I've also said we should have offered the security assurances Russia was seeking.

But let's be clear about why Russia invaded. It wasn't merely because Putin thought Ukraine was a threat or would be a threat. It's because Putin - as he said during the interview - has imperialistic ambitions. As he said, Ukraine was once apart of mother Russia and he desired to have it apart of mother Russia again. Those were his own words. That is not ok, under any circumstance. He's got thousands of Ukrainians and Russians blood on his hands because of it.

Putin is a smart, calculating, steely cold blooded killer. We shouldn't be in a proxy war with Russia and I put most of the fault on the Biden admin for that but trying to make Putin a sympathetic figure is a terrible look. Conservatives should not be cozying up to despots.
I expected this reaction from a lot of people, but not so much from you. Sounds like you watched the first 20 minutes and tuned out, am I right?
Tucker is a Putin stooge.


Hardly

Tucker is merely the most successful 'talking head' of all time.

Has become extremely wealthy playing to his ever increasing audience world wide.

The dork has more influence than any politician outside of the president.


Perhaps, but...

...he's still kind of a Putin stooge. Saw him on TV a couple of days ago actually insisting that Putin didn't kill Nalvany. To reach that conclusion already is incredible. We all know Putin did it.
Realitybites
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Quote:

Perhaps, but...
...he's still kind of a Putin stooge. Saw him on TV a couple of days ago actually insisting that Putin didn't kill Nalvany. To reach that conclusion already is incredible. We all know Putin did it.

What evidence (besides "Russia! Russia! Russia!" and "Putin! Putin! Putin!" do you have that Putin ordered Navalny's assassination?

Probably vaccinated guy dies suddenly. There's a lot of that going on these days.
Bear8084
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Realitybites said:

Quote:

Perhaps, but...
...he's still kind of a Putin stooge. Saw him on TV a couple of days ago actually insisting that Putin didn't kill Nalvany. To reach that conclusion already is incredible. We all know Putin did it.

What evidence (besides "Russia! Russia! Russia!" and "Putin! Putin! Putin!" do you have that Putin ordered Navalny's assassination?

Probably vaccinated guy dies suddenly. There's a lot of that going on these days.


LOL shill gonna shill. And take the tinfoil hat off.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

What it says:

Quote:

The dangers of ignoring Ukraine's neo-Nazis

Kyiv's tolerance for fascist extremism should cause the U.S. government to re-evaluate its support of Ukraine.

By Ben Choucroun
Published October 13, 2023

The name "Azov Brigade" should be recognizable to anyone who follows the conflict in Ukraine. To Ukraine, it is a key military unit composed of motivated fighters who have resisted Russian aggression. To Russia, the Azov Brigade is a neo-Nazi terrorist formation. Both of these narratives contain elements of truth. Azov Battalion is an important part of Ukraine's war effort, and it is a neo-Nazi formation that has committed numerous atrocities. The U.S.'s continuing military support for Ukraine despite its neo-Nazi problem and the whitewashing of the Azov by media outlets are fueling racism both in and outside of Ukraine.

The origins of the Azov Battalion lie in the 2014 Euromaidan Revolution, in which demonstrators overthrew the Ukrainian government. The revolutionaries were led by Andriy Parubiy, the founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (renamed Svoboda). After the revolution, members of Svoboda were appointed to key government positions, including minister of defense, head of the general prosecutor's office and deputy prime minister.

After Euromaidan, Russian-speaking territories in the eastern region of Donbas launched a rebellion against the far-right government in Kyiv. Volunteer militias, including the Azov Battalion (which was formed by the neo-Nazi Patriot of Ukraine party), arose to fight the rebels.

Between 2014 and 2022, as the war in Donbas dragged on, Ukraine's far-right government continuously passed laws glorifying Nazi collaborators. In 2018, then-president Petro Poroshenko created a national holiday for Stepan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator whose soldiers murdered up to 100,000 people during the Holocaust. Poroshenko even made it a criminal offense to denigrate Bandera's organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, and a government-funded museum opened an exhibit in their honor.

Unsurprisingly, Azov only grew. Between 2014 and 2022, Azov trained neo-Nazi terrorists and even recruited Brazilian fascists to fight in Ukraine. They were banned from Facebook for racist and antisemitic content (they titled one page "Gas Chambers"). Yet, they were described by Poroshenko as "our best warriors," and Vadim Troyan, a veteran of the Azov Battalion and Patriot of Ukraine, was appointed to be deputy minister of the interior, putting a neo-Nazi in charge of Ukraine's National Police.

When Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Azov gained more prominence. The unit garnered praise from the Ukrainian government and was further integrated into the Ukrainian military, being expanded from a regiment into a brigade. Some media outlets changed the way they describe Azov; German state-owned media outlet Deutsche Welle, which once described Azov as a neo-Nazi regiment, soon began labeling allegations of neo-Nazism as Russian propaganda. The BBC followed a similar line, moving from investigating Azov's neo-Nazi ideology in depth to downplaying Azov's neo-Nazism.

Azov has not been "de-Nazified" after it was further integrated into the Ukrainian military in 2022, as Azov and some media outlets claim. Much of Azov's leadership has been in the group since 2014 and has demonstrated neo-Nazi ties. Azov's press officer and the head of Azov's military school run social media accounts adorned with neo-Nazi symbolism. Azov's logo even contains the Wolfsangel, a neo-Nazi symbol. Not only is Azov a neo-Nazi military unit, but Western media outlets are complicit in whitewashing that fact, commiting journalistic malpractice of the highest order.

As Lev Golkin discussed in one article, Azov has a symbiotic relationship with Putin. Azov's existence allows Putin to justify his illegal invasion by claiming he is "de-Nazifying" Ukraine. Putin's rhetoric allows Azov to further justify its existence to Western countries based on its opposition to Putin, and receive more support from the Ukrainian government. This gives Putin even more rhetorical weight to justify his invasion of Ukraine, and so the cycle continues.

The losers of this dynamic are sure to be Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. In 2017, according to one report, Ukraine had more incidents of antisemitism than all other post-Soviet countries combined. In 2018, Nazi groups and police marched door to door, terrorizing Roma people. Among the groups marching was C14, a neo-Nazi organization which has in the past received funding from the Ukrainian government.

Additionally, the presence of neo-Nazi ideology in the Ukrainian government goes beyond Azov and similar gangs. Ukraine's parliament recently quoted Stepan Bandera in a statement. Ukraine's Ministry of Defense posted a picture of a Ukrainian soldier wearing a patch with neo-Nazi symbols before deleting it after outcry. A Ukrainian general was filmed threatening to destroy Jews.

By integrating Azov into its armed forces and outlawing the denigration of Holocaust perpetrators, the Ukrainian government has shown it is willing to tolerate neo-Nazi extremism, which directly threatens Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. If the U.S. cares about its stated commitment to human rights, it should immediately re-evaluate its support for Ukraine and stop ignoring the radicalization of Ukraine's military. Once a government starts employing neo-Nazis, it loses all moral superiority.

What Mothra sees:

Quote:

...

...

...
...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

!!!!ILLEGAL INVASION!!1!

....

...

...

Even if I engaged in this Russian propagated fantasy of a big Nazi problem, why is it any of Russia's business? They weren't even a threat to Russians until Putin invaded Crimea. Russia doesn't want a strong independent Ukraine, so they manufacture this crisis to marginalize Ukrainian nationalist sentiment. All part of the info war, until Russia decided to make it a real one.
Western media recognized it as a problem prior to the war. It's the denial since 2022 that is a form of propaganda. Putin didn't start the Donbas war by annexing Crimea. He sees the Nazis as a tool of US policy, and with good reason. It's what they have been to varying degrees ever since WWII.
Complete and utter BS, Sam. Putin started the Donbas War when Seperatists and Russian soldiers started occupying government buildings in Donetsk and Luhansk, aided by his forward positions in Crimea.

When you wonder how some of the Trumpers can excuse his actions with creative interpretation of events or whataboutism (as I do), try some reflection on Putin and your apologetics for him. It's eerily similar.

The Nazi problem is an overinflated fantasy of Putin and some of the liberal U.S. media swipes (like the White Supremacy problem). But for certain with both, the "Nazi threat" was no more of a threat to Russia than our "White Supremacy problem" is a threat to Canada.
And the separatists would have done that regardless. It's debatable whether Ukrainian Nazi groups would be a threat on their own. What you keep ignoring is that they're being armed, trained, and encouraged (if not directed) by the CIA. The last time that happened they ran a decade-long insurgency, committed hundreds of assassinations and terrorists acts, infiltrated the Soviet military, and massacred over a hundred thousand people.
Wait, are you tying WW2 Soviet resistance activities to the CIA?
Immediately post-war.
That's the same people, under the OSS. Didn't work out, so I'm not sure the germane nature of this, or you're attempting a huge stretch. It goes back to my Werner von Braun comment. Most of these folks ended up defecting and needing our protection in exchange for some attempts at Intel or some other resource or skill they had.

This has to be viewed in the context of the era. Both sides were enticing (or kidnapping) a bunch of Nazi Germans, including some unsavory ones, all for the purpose of strategic advantage. If you want something more relevant to today's issues, it was during this time that Stalin forcibly removed the Tartars from Crimea and Eastern Ukraine and replaced them with ethnic Russians.
The collaboration "worked out" in the sense that it was a big long-term investment and a big thorn in Russia's side. It may not have produced much useful intelligence, but that's beside the point. I don't know why you bring up the emigres' need for protection, as if that's supposed to excuse their extremism or our support of it. It's not as if protecting them was the purpose of the operation. The von Braun comparison likewise misses the point. The problem isn't simply that these people escaped justice. It's that they were completely unrepentant and were still pursuing the same goals after the war.

The CIA has been remarkably honest about this at times. They were worried about the ideology of these groups from the beginning. The more we came to rely on them, the more we tended to "blur the record" and make excuses for them. After a few years, the official line evolved into something very much like yours -- they were patriots first and foremost, and they only sided with the Nazis because of opposition to Russia.

It wasn't true then, and it isn't true now. That's not to say there aren't true Ukrainian patriots. But there's no reason to let racist fanatics piggyback their agenda on top of Ukrainian nationalism. You're the one broad-brushing them together when you deny history and present-day reality in order to give the bad guys a pass.
Actually it was true and even the book chapter you refer to says as such (thanks I did read it). It's also why they were unreliable, and the program never took off. And as if to point out the obvious, it literally says "Ukrainian Nationists". Drawing even further, there is no history to "deny". Not only is there little of any history there, the "Nazi" piece is completely irrelevant to OSS interest, CIA interest, or anything else. The labeling is ONLY relevant to marginalize Ukrainian Nationalism. I'm sure there are bad dudes on all sides, but this is being used as an invasion precursor. Let me draw a similarly absurd equivalent that perhaps will resonate with you. This is like the U.S. using small amounts of mustard gas in Iraq as a WMD justification.

Make no mistake. The real bad guys came rolling in from Russia. This war doesn't happen but for that.
No, it doesn't say that. The CIA said it to the Displaced Persons Commission in 1949, and the author cites it specifically as an example of the kind of dubious rationalizations they were employing.

The relevance is abundantly clear from the Nation article I posted earlier. After this particular program ran its course, we continued to use the same groups in other parts of Europe during the Cold War, and more recently they've started playing a major role in Ukraine again. The group primarily responsible for escalating the Maidan riots was literally the same one Bandera led during the original operations there.

But I understand why you want to minimize them and conflate them with people who just want an independent Ukraine. You have to, or else you'd have to admit that Putin might have a point.
ATL Bear
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Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

What it says:

Quote:

The dangers of ignoring Ukraine's neo-Nazis

Kyiv's tolerance for fascist extremism should cause the U.S. government to re-evaluate its support of Ukraine.

By Ben Choucroun
Published October 13, 2023

The name "Azov Brigade" should be recognizable to anyone who follows the conflict in Ukraine. To Ukraine, it is a key military unit composed of motivated fighters who have resisted Russian aggression. To Russia, the Azov Brigade is a neo-Nazi terrorist formation. Both of these narratives contain elements of truth. Azov Battalion is an important part of Ukraine's war effort, and it is a neo-Nazi formation that has committed numerous atrocities. The U.S.'s continuing military support for Ukraine despite its neo-Nazi problem and the whitewashing of the Azov by media outlets are fueling racism both in and outside of Ukraine.

The origins of the Azov Battalion lie in the 2014 Euromaidan Revolution, in which demonstrators overthrew the Ukrainian government. The revolutionaries were led by Andriy Parubiy, the founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (renamed Svoboda). After the revolution, members of Svoboda were appointed to key government positions, including minister of defense, head of the general prosecutor's office and deputy prime minister.

After Euromaidan, Russian-speaking territories in the eastern region of Donbas launched a rebellion against the far-right government in Kyiv. Volunteer militias, including the Azov Battalion (which was formed by the neo-Nazi Patriot of Ukraine party), arose to fight the rebels.

Between 2014 and 2022, as the war in Donbas dragged on, Ukraine's far-right government continuously passed laws glorifying Nazi collaborators. In 2018, then-president Petro Poroshenko created a national holiday for Stepan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator whose soldiers murdered up to 100,000 people during the Holocaust. Poroshenko even made it a criminal offense to denigrate Bandera's organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, and a government-funded museum opened an exhibit in their honor.

Unsurprisingly, Azov only grew. Between 2014 and 2022, Azov trained neo-Nazi terrorists and even recruited Brazilian fascists to fight in Ukraine. They were banned from Facebook for racist and antisemitic content (they titled one page "Gas Chambers"). Yet, they were described by Poroshenko as "our best warriors," and Vadim Troyan, a veteran of the Azov Battalion and Patriot of Ukraine, was appointed to be deputy minister of the interior, putting a neo-Nazi in charge of Ukraine's National Police.

When Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Azov gained more prominence. The unit garnered praise from the Ukrainian government and was further integrated into the Ukrainian military, being expanded from a regiment into a brigade. Some media outlets changed the way they describe Azov; German state-owned media outlet Deutsche Welle, which once described Azov as a neo-Nazi regiment, soon began labeling allegations of neo-Nazism as Russian propaganda. The BBC followed a similar line, moving from investigating Azov's neo-Nazi ideology in depth to downplaying Azov's neo-Nazism.

Azov has not been "de-Nazified" after it was further integrated into the Ukrainian military in 2022, as Azov and some media outlets claim. Much of Azov's leadership has been in the group since 2014 and has demonstrated neo-Nazi ties. Azov's press officer and the head of Azov's military school run social media accounts adorned with neo-Nazi symbolism. Azov's logo even contains the Wolfsangel, a neo-Nazi symbol. Not only is Azov a neo-Nazi military unit, but Western media outlets are complicit in whitewashing that fact, commiting journalistic malpractice of the highest order.

As Lev Golkin discussed in one article, Azov has a symbiotic relationship with Putin. Azov's existence allows Putin to justify his illegal invasion by claiming he is "de-Nazifying" Ukraine. Putin's rhetoric allows Azov to further justify its existence to Western countries based on its opposition to Putin, and receive more support from the Ukrainian government. This gives Putin even more rhetorical weight to justify his invasion of Ukraine, and so the cycle continues.

The losers of this dynamic are sure to be Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. In 2017, according to one report, Ukraine had more incidents of antisemitism than all other post-Soviet countries combined. In 2018, Nazi groups and police marched door to door, terrorizing Roma people. Among the groups marching was C14, a neo-Nazi organization which has in the past received funding from the Ukrainian government.

Additionally, the presence of neo-Nazi ideology in the Ukrainian government goes beyond Azov and similar gangs. Ukraine's parliament recently quoted Stepan Bandera in a statement. Ukraine's Ministry of Defense posted a picture of a Ukrainian soldier wearing a patch with neo-Nazi symbols before deleting it after outcry. A Ukrainian general was filmed threatening to destroy Jews.

By integrating Azov into its armed forces and outlawing the denigration of Holocaust perpetrators, the Ukrainian government has shown it is willing to tolerate neo-Nazi extremism, which directly threatens Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. If the U.S. cares about its stated commitment to human rights, it should immediately re-evaluate its support for Ukraine and stop ignoring the radicalization of Ukraine's military. Once a government starts employing neo-Nazis, it loses all moral superiority.

What Mothra sees:

Quote:

...

...

...
...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

!!!!ILLEGAL INVASION!!1!

....

...

...

Even if I engaged in this Russian propagated fantasy of a big Nazi problem, why is it any of Russia's business? They weren't even a threat to Russians until Putin invaded Crimea. Russia doesn't want a strong independent Ukraine, so they manufacture this crisis to marginalize Ukrainian nationalist sentiment. All part of the info war, until Russia decided to make it a real one.
Western media recognized it as a problem prior to the war. It's the denial since 2022 that is a form of propaganda. Putin didn't start the Donbas war by annexing Crimea. He sees the Nazis as a tool of US policy, and with good reason. It's what they have been to varying degrees ever since WWII.
Complete and utter BS, Sam. Putin started the Donbas War when Seperatists and Russian soldiers started occupying government buildings in Donetsk and Luhansk, aided by his forward positions in Crimea.

When you wonder how some of the Trumpers can excuse his actions with creative interpretation of events or whataboutism (as I do), try some reflection on Putin and your apologetics for him. It's eerily similar.

The Nazi problem is an overinflated fantasy of Putin and some of the liberal U.S. media swipes (like the White Supremacy problem). But for certain with both, the "Nazi threat" was no more of a threat to Russia than our "White Supremacy problem" is a threat to Canada.
And the separatists would have done that regardless. It's debatable whether Ukrainian Nazi groups would be a threat on their own. What you keep ignoring is that they're being armed, trained, and encouraged (if not directed) by the CIA. The last time that happened they ran a decade-long insurgency, committed hundreds of assassinations and terrorists acts, infiltrated the Soviet military, and massacred over a hundred thousand people.
Wait, are you tying WW2 Soviet resistance activities to the CIA?
Immediately post-war.
That's the same people, under the OSS. Didn't work out, so I'm not sure the germane nature of this, or you're attempting a huge stretch. It goes back to my Werner von Braun comment. Most of these folks ended up defecting and needing our protection in exchange for some attempts at Intel or some other resource or skill they had.

This has to be viewed in the context of the era. Both sides were enticing (or kidnapping) a bunch of Nazi Germans, including some unsavory ones, all for the purpose of strategic advantage. If you want something more relevant to today's issues, it was during this time that Stalin forcibly removed the Tartars from Crimea and Eastern Ukraine and replaced them with ethnic Russians.
The collaboration "worked out" in the sense that it was a big long-term investment and a big thorn in Russia's side. It may not have produced much useful intelligence, but that's beside the point. I don't know why you bring up the emigres' need for protection, as if that's supposed to excuse their extremism or our support of it. It's not as if protecting them was the purpose of the operation. The von Braun comparison likewise misses the point. The problem isn't simply that these people escaped justice. It's that they were completely unrepentant and were still pursuing the same goals after the war.

The CIA has been remarkably honest about this at times. They were worried about the ideology of these groups from the beginning. The more we came to rely on them, the more we tended to "blur the record" and make excuses for them. After a few years, the official line evolved into something very much like yours -- they were patriots first and foremost, and they only sided with the Nazis because of opposition to Russia.

It wasn't true then, and it isn't true now. That's not to say there aren't true Ukrainian patriots. But there's no reason to let racist fanatics piggyback their agenda on top of Ukrainian nationalism. You're the one broad-brushing them together when you deny history and present-day reality in order to give the bad guys a pass.
Actually it was true and even the book chapter you refer to says as such (thanks I did read it). It's also why they were unreliable, and the program never took off. And as if to point out the obvious, it literally says "Ukrainian Nationists". Drawing even further, there is no history to "deny". Not only is there little of any history there, the "Nazi" piece is completely irrelevant to OSS interest, CIA interest, or anything else. The labeling is ONLY relevant to marginalize Ukrainian Nationalism. I'm sure there are bad dudes on all sides, but this is being used as an invasion precursor. Let me draw a similarly absurd equivalent that perhaps will resonate with you. This is like the U.S. using small amounts of mustard gas in Iraq as a WMD justification.

Make no mistake. The real bad guys came rolling in from Russia. This war doesn't happen but for that.
No, it doesn't say that. The CIA said it to the Displaced Persons Commission in 1949, and the author cites it specifically as an example of the kind of dubious rationalizations they were employing.

The relevance is abundantly clear from the Nation article I posted earlier. After this particular program ran its course, we continued to use the same groups in other parts of Europe during the Cold War, and more recently they've started playing a major role in Ukraine again. The group primarily responsible for escalating the Maidan riots was literally the same one Bandera led during the original operations there.

But I understand why you want to minimize them and conflate them with people who just want an independent Ukraine. You have to, or else you'd have to admit that Putin might have a point.
Happy to get into the nuance of intelligence operations, especially what was happening right after WW2, when much of America and the West thought we were stumbling into the next World War between East and West, but that's a complete distraction.

However, even if I engaged in the belief there was some "Nazi" element in Ukraine, they still were never a threat to Russia. Furthermore, Putin isn't there for the Romanian gypsies or the LGBTQ Ukrainians (he has enacted laws against them in Russia), the main targets even your Nation article mentions. It is anyone regardless of stripe that rejects Russia. The absurdity as a justification or that it required some type of Russian concerned "denazification" is outrageous.

He is using it as an invasion justification, and he will use it to oppress Ukrainians in the future if he succeeds. All built on a great lie. He has precedent in his country and history.
Mothra
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Realitybites said:

Quote:

Perhaps, but...
...he's still kind of a Putin stooge. Saw him on TV a couple of days ago actually insisting that Putin didn't kill Nalvany. To reach that conclusion already is incredible. We all know Putin did it.

What evidence (besides "Russia! Russia! Russia!" and "Putin! Putin! Putin!" do you have that Putin ordered Navalny's assassination?

Probably vaccinated guy dies suddenly. There's a lot of that going on these days.
Hmm, I don't know. Perhaps its that he already tried to kill him once by poisoning him?

I know, I know. Probably just a coincidence.

Let me guess - you also think Yevgeny Prigozhin's plane just magically fell from the sky, and the Russian oligarchs that keep falling from skyscrapers have stumbling issues. Amiright?
Mothra
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Bear8084 said:

Realitybites said:

Quote:

Perhaps, but...
...he's still kind of a Putin stooge. Saw him on TV a couple of days ago actually insisting that Putin didn't kill Nalvany. To reach that conclusion already is incredible. We all know Putin did it.

What evidence (besides "Russia! Russia! Russia!" and "Putin! Putin! Putin!" do you have that Putin ordered Navalny's assassination?

Probably vaccinated guy dies suddenly. There's a lot of that going on these days.


LOL shill gonna shill. And take the tinfoil hat off.
Some of the conservative posters on this board have either gone bat **** crazy, or they are some of the dumbest and naive people on the planet.
Mothra
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

What it says:

Quote:

The dangers of ignoring Ukraine's neo-Nazis

Kyiv's tolerance for fascist extremism should cause the U.S. government to re-evaluate its support of Ukraine.

By Ben Choucroun
Published October 13, 2023

The name "Azov Brigade" should be recognizable to anyone who follows the conflict in Ukraine. To Ukraine, it is a key military unit composed of motivated fighters who have resisted Russian aggression. To Russia, the Azov Brigade is a neo-Nazi terrorist formation. Both of these narratives contain elements of truth. Azov Battalion is an important part of Ukraine's war effort, and it is a neo-Nazi formation that has committed numerous atrocities. The U.S.'s continuing military support for Ukraine despite its neo-Nazi problem and the whitewashing of the Azov by media outlets are fueling racism both in and outside of Ukraine.

The origins of the Azov Battalion lie in the 2014 Euromaidan Revolution, in which demonstrators overthrew the Ukrainian government. The revolutionaries were led by Andriy Parubiy, the founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (renamed Svoboda). After the revolution, members of Svoboda were appointed to key government positions, including minister of defense, head of the general prosecutor's office and deputy prime minister.

After Euromaidan, Russian-speaking territories in the eastern region of Donbas launched a rebellion against the far-right government in Kyiv. Volunteer militias, including the Azov Battalion (which was formed by the neo-Nazi Patriot of Ukraine party), arose to fight the rebels.

Between 2014 and 2022, as the war in Donbas dragged on, Ukraine's far-right government continuously passed laws glorifying Nazi collaborators. In 2018, then-president Petro Poroshenko created a national holiday for Stepan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator whose soldiers murdered up to 100,000 people during the Holocaust. Poroshenko even made it a criminal offense to denigrate Bandera's organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, and a government-funded museum opened an exhibit in their honor.

Unsurprisingly, Azov only grew. Between 2014 and 2022, Azov trained neo-Nazi terrorists and even recruited Brazilian fascists to fight in Ukraine. They were banned from Facebook for racist and antisemitic content (they titled one page "Gas Chambers"). Yet, they were described by Poroshenko as "our best warriors," and Vadim Troyan, a veteran of the Azov Battalion and Patriot of Ukraine, was appointed to be deputy minister of the interior, putting a neo-Nazi in charge of Ukraine's National Police.

When Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Azov gained more prominence. The unit garnered praise from the Ukrainian government and was further integrated into the Ukrainian military, being expanded from a regiment into a brigade. Some media outlets changed the way they describe Azov; German state-owned media outlet Deutsche Welle, which once described Azov as a neo-Nazi regiment, soon began labeling allegations of neo-Nazism as Russian propaganda. The BBC followed a similar line, moving from investigating Azov's neo-Nazi ideology in depth to downplaying Azov's neo-Nazism.

Azov has not been "de-Nazified" after it was further integrated into the Ukrainian military in 2022, as Azov and some media outlets claim. Much of Azov's leadership has been in the group since 2014 and has demonstrated neo-Nazi ties. Azov's press officer and the head of Azov's military school run social media accounts adorned with neo-Nazi symbolism. Azov's logo even contains the Wolfsangel, a neo-Nazi symbol. Not only is Azov a neo-Nazi military unit, but Western media outlets are complicit in whitewashing that fact, commiting journalistic malpractice of the highest order.

As Lev Golkin discussed in one article, Azov has a symbiotic relationship with Putin. Azov's existence allows Putin to justify his illegal invasion by claiming he is "de-Nazifying" Ukraine. Putin's rhetoric allows Azov to further justify its existence to Western countries based on its opposition to Putin, and receive more support from the Ukrainian government. This gives Putin even more rhetorical weight to justify his invasion of Ukraine, and so the cycle continues.

The losers of this dynamic are sure to be Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. In 2017, according to one report, Ukraine had more incidents of antisemitism than all other post-Soviet countries combined. In 2018, Nazi groups and police marched door to door, terrorizing Roma people. Among the groups marching was C14, a neo-Nazi organization which has in the past received funding from the Ukrainian government.

Additionally, the presence of neo-Nazi ideology in the Ukrainian government goes beyond Azov and similar gangs. Ukraine's parliament recently quoted Stepan Bandera in a statement. Ukraine's Ministry of Defense posted a picture of a Ukrainian soldier wearing a patch with neo-Nazi symbols before deleting it after outcry. A Ukrainian general was filmed threatening to destroy Jews.

By integrating Azov into its armed forces and outlawing the denigration of Holocaust perpetrators, the Ukrainian government has shown it is willing to tolerate neo-Nazi extremism, which directly threatens Ukrainian Jews and Roma people. If the U.S. cares about its stated commitment to human rights, it should immediately re-evaluate its support for Ukraine and stop ignoring the radicalization of Ukraine's military. Once a government starts employing neo-Nazis, it loses all moral superiority.

What Mothra sees:

Quote:

...

...

...
...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

!!!!ILLEGAL INVASION!!1!

....

...

...

Even if I engaged in this Russian propagated fantasy of a big Nazi problem, why is it any of Russia's business? They weren't even a threat to Russians until Putin invaded Crimea. Russia doesn't want a strong independent Ukraine, so they manufacture this crisis to marginalize Ukrainian nationalist sentiment. All part of the info war, until Russia decided to make it a real one.
Western media recognized it as a problem prior to the war. It's the denial since 2022 that is a form of propaganda. Putin didn't start the Donbas war by annexing Crimea. He sees the Nazis as a tool of US policy, and with good reason. It's what they have been to varying degrees ever since WWII.
Complete and utter BS, Sam. Putin started the Donbas War when Seperatists and Russian soldiers started occupying government buildings in Donetsk and Luhansk, aided by his forward positions in Crimea.

When you wonder how some of the Trumpers can excuse his actions with creative interpretation of events or whataboutism (as I do), try some reflection on Putin and your apologetics for him. It's eerily similar.

The Nazi problem is an overinflated fantasy of Putin and some of the liberal U.S. media swipes (like the White Supremacy problem). But for certain with both, the "Nazi threat" was no more of a threat to Russia than our "White Supremacy problem" is a threat to Canada.
And the separatists would have done that regardless. It's debatable whether Ukrainian Nazi groups would be a threat on their own. What you keep ignoring is that they're being armed, trained, and encouraged (if not directed) by the CIA. The last time that happened they ran a decade-long insurgency, committed hundreds of assassinations and terrorists acts, infiltrated the Soviet military, and massacred over a hundred thousand people.
Wait, are you tying WW2 Soviet resistance activities to the CIA?
Immediately post-war.
That's the same people, under the OSS. Didn't work out, so I'm not sure the germane nature of this, or you're attempting a huge stretch. It goes back to my Werner von Braun comment. Most of these folks ended up defecting and needing our protection in exchange for some attempts at Intel or some other resource or skill they had.

This has to be viewed in the context of the era. Both sides were enticing (or kidnapping) a bunch of Nazi Germans, including some unsavory ones, all for the purpose of strategic advantage. If you want something more relevant to today's issues, it was during this time that Stalin forcibly removed the Tartars from Crimea and Eastern Ukraine and replaced them with ethnic Russians.
The collaboration "worked out" in the sense that it was a big long-term investment and a big thorn in Russia's side. It may not have produced much useful intelligence, but that's beside the point. I don't know why you bring up the emigres' need for protection, as if that's supposed to excuse their extremism or our support of it. It's not as if protecting them was the purpose of the operation. The von Braun comparison likewise misses the point. The problem isn't simply that these people escaped justice. It's that they were completely unrepentant and were still pursuing the same goals after the war.

The CIA has been remarkably honest about this at times. They were worried about the ideology of these groups from the beginning. The more we came to rely on them, the more we tended to "blur the record" and make excuses for them. After a few years, the official line evolved into something very much like yours -- they were patriots first and foremost, and they only sided with the Nazis because of opposition to Russia.

It wasn't true then, and it isn't true now. That's not to say there aren't true Ukrainian patriots. But there's no reason to let racist fanatics piggyback their agenda on top of Ukrainian nationalism. You're the one broad-brushing them together when you deny history and present-day reality in order to give the bad guys a pass.
Actually it was true and even the book chapter you refer to says as such (thanks I did read it). It's also why they were unreliable, and the program never took off. And as if to point out the obvious, it literally says "Ukrainian Nationists". Drawing even further, there is no history to "deny". Not only is there little of any history there, the "Nazi" piece is completely irrelevant to OSS interest, CIA interest, or anything else. The labeling is ONLY relevant to marginalize Ukrainian Nationalism. I'm sure there are bad dudes on all sides, but this is being used as an invasion precursor. Let me draw a similarly absurd equivalent that perhaps will resonate with you. This is like the U.S. using small amounts of mustard gas in Iraq as a WMD justification.

Make no mistake. The real bad guys came rolling in from Russia. This war doesn't happen but for that.
But I understand why you want to minimize them and conflate them with people who just want an independent Ukraine. You have to, or else you'd have to admit that Putin might have a point.
One can acknowledge that Putin might have a legitimate beef on some issues, while at the same time realizing that the proffered excuse of rooting out Nazis as justification for the invasion is unadulterated bull ***** Unfortunately, it does not appear you can distinguish between reality and Russian propaganda.
Realitybites
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Multiple replies and still no one posting evidence that Navalny was assassinated, much less by Putin.

Andrew Breitbart clearly was assassinated by Barack Hussein Obama days before he was going to release footage that he said would change the course of rhe 2012 election. Let's unravel that assassination first.
Bear8084
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Realitybites said:

Multiple replies and still no one posting evidence that Navalny was assassinated, much less by Putin.

Andrew Breitbart clearly was assassinated by Barack Hussein Obama days before he was going to release footage that he said would change the course of rhe 2012 election. Let's unravel that assassination first.


The tinfoil hat is still on pretty tight I see.
 
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