BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Still waiting for your evidence that praying to Mary or to saints was taught, believed, or practiced by Jesus or his apostles, or the early Church. You were pretty confident about it. Do you need to walk back, i.e. "crawdad" from your claim?

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There is certainly documented evidence of Marion prayers from the 3rd century. I call that early. I don't think it's necessary to find specific instruction from Jesus or the apostles for something to be inferred. I don't think you have any specific evidence from Jesus or his apostles prohibiting invoking intercessory prayer from the cloud of witnesses which composes the communion of saints.

Not a Roman Catholic as I've said so don't pretend to have extensive knowledge of the Magisterium or Catechism, but your repeated appeal to a somewhat obscure Marion prayer hardly seems sufficient reason to trash the single largest group of Christians now or ever. I believe it does not rise to the level of official dogma, though willing to be proven wrong about this. Regardless, you cannot "prove" from Scripture that those who exist now in the presence of our Lord cannot hear our invocations and cannot intercede for us. In addition, this is not salvific one way or the other. I find the practice personally edifying and commend it to all.

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Third century is not early. Even gnosticism was around well before then, so obviously, heresy doesn't need that much time to develop. That's why Sola Scriptura is necessary.

Saying that because Jesus didn't specifically prohibit something means it's ok to do, is a dangerous and foolish way to think. You can reason that way to justify anything. That's how liberal Christians try to justify sin. Trying to take a single reference about a "cloud of witnesses" and extrapolating that out to a whole belief system of praying to Mary and saints is too much of a reach, especially since there are no corroborating verses that make this out to be more than just a metaphor.

It isn't just those "obscure" prayers (its hardly obscure -it's fully endorsed and promoted by the Catholic Church, having gone through 800 editions, and it is quoted often by bishops and Popes). There's also the Marian dogmas, the Eucharist, Purgatory, etc. There are many unbiblical beliefs and practices in Catholicism. The goal is not to "trash" Catholics but rather to tell the truth. You may think the practice of praying to saints isn't salvivic, and it is possible that in of itself it does not necessarily disqualify one's salvation. But the danger is it may progress to outright idolatry and to a belief in a twisted, distorted gospel, which may indeed disqualify. Based on the dogmas of Mary, and the worship of her evident by all the hymns, prayers, bowing, incantations, etc., it is quite likely many Catholics put their trust in their salvation on Mary, not Jesus. That is not a saving faith.

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What is "saving faith" in your opinion?

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

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Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

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I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

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So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.

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Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)

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I don't want to put words in your mouth so to be clear are you saying no one should offer up nor request intercessory prayer ever? ....

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Not from the departed, but amongst the living. And not if you believe you need someone else's intercessory prayer otherwise Jesus would not be willing nor able to hear or answer you if you go to him directly.

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Ok. So ultimately you agree intercession may be efficacious if requested from someone in the here and now as long as the person making the request understands that they can invoke Jesus directly? Did I get that right?

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I do agree it may be efficacious to give and receive intercessory prayer, but I said nothing about efficacy or "the here and now", whatever that means.

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I was confused by your bit about Jesus not being able or willing to hear or answer. Whatever that means.

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What's so hard to understand about that? It was pretty clear.

It had nothing to do with you not understanding, we both know that. It was just an opportunity for you to lay a pretty lame trap. You had already revealed your new view on time and eternity in an earlier post. Pretty easy to sniff it out. What I don't understand is what point you thought you'd be making if I fell for it and said "yes".

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

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Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

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I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

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So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.

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Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)

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I don't want to put words in your mouth so to be clear are you saying no one should offer up nor request intercessory prayer ever? ....

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Not from the departed, but amongst the living. And not if you believe you need someone else's intercessory prayer otherwise Jesus would not be willing nor able to hear or answer you if you go to him directly.

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Ok. So ultimately you agree intercession may be efficacious if requested from someone in the here and now as long as the person making the request understands that they can invoke Jesus directly? Did I get that right?

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I do agree it may be efficacious to give and receive intercessory prayer, but I said nothing about efficacy or "the here and now", whatever that means.

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Some of us exist within time while others exist outside of it. Regardless, we still exist. Simple enough for you?

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This belief doesn't extrapolate to the practice of praying to Mary and saints. Don't extrapolate onto Christianity beliefs and practices that have no Scriptural support. It is very unwise. Is that simple enough for YOU?

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

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Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

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I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

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Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

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I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

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Oh, so you're saying "intercessor" may have multiple meanings or applications… who knew?

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And that point is relevant because....why?

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

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Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

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I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

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Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

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I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

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So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

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Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Great question!
BTD said "So what do you do when you have two people who claim revelation from God, but they contradict each other? Which is correct? They can't both be, if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided. Upon what standard of truth will you decide?"

1. "if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided." Neither God nor the Holy Spirit are divided rather humans are divided on their interpretations of God and the Holy Spirit. The overwhelming witness of Scripture is that God is love and by the Holy Spirit we know that love. Psalm 143:10
"Teach me to do your will, for you are my God. Let your good spirit lead me on a level path.

Love is not divided. God is love .

2. You ask, "Upon what standard of truth will you decide?" Let I John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."
The standard of truth is that which reveals God's love. All other standards are secondary and judged by love.
J
3. esus reduced the commandments to two Matthew 22: "37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Then this note by Jesus "40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I would suggest all interpretation of scripture rests on these two commandments.
If any belief or dogma or interpretation falls outside of the love commandment then it is false.

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But what if one says that the Holy Spirit is telling them to allow gay marriage in Church, because it is loving of gays.....but the other says the Holy Spirit is telling them to NOT allow gay marriage in church, because that is loving toward God (and loving gays "as themselves", meaning that to love someone means they shouldn't encourage the sin of that person)? Both say they are following those two greatest commandments.

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That's why we have the magisterium.

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Ok, so that's the same scenario but on a macro scale: what if protestants believe the Holy Spirit is telling them that what the magisterium declared is actually false? And naturally, the magisterium is claimed to be influenced by the Holy Spirit as well. How do you then decide?

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Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church. Jesus never promised that individuals could discern all truth by interpreting Scripture on their own. When there is disagreement, we rely on the tradition handed down to us from those who were closest to Jesus and the Apostles.

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But what if that tradition can't be traced to Jesus or the apostles, and even goes against Scripture? See my example with the Immaculate Conception. Therein lies the problem with the Catholic Church claiming ultimate authority. They can just declare that a tradition goes back to Jesus and his apostles and is fully supported by Scripture, and ONLY THEY have the authority to decide what Scripture says. What gave them that authority? Well, Scripture of course! It's circular, so if bad teaching or tradition, or even outright heresy were to infiltrate the Church, it could potentially get reinforced instead of rightfully discarded.

Jesus never promised that his Church would not be attacked by Satan, only that it would not fail overall. He did promise, however, that false teachers and prophets would indeed come, and that some will be led astray by them. We are taught in Scripture how to guard against this - we are to test everything against his Word, even what church leaders say. We are not taught in Scripture to just accept whatever our leaders tell us. Why? Because man is fallible, but Scripture is infallible. Even Peter, the so-called first Pope, just shortly after he was supposedly given the keys to Jesus' kingdom and authority over his Church, was told by Jesus to "Get behind me Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns." Jesus called Peter, the guy who had supposedly just been appointed father of the Church, SATAN!! He was saying Peter was speaking for Satan! Can there be any clearer of an indication to the Catholic Church that even their leaders aren't immune to being terribly, terribly led astray?

One of the best guiding principles from Jesus is this: "you will know them by their fruits". Here are some of the "fruits" of the Catholic Church: Mary is declared to have been sinless and declared to have been bodily assumed into heaven, where she is prayed to and acts as an intercessor for sinners. Does that sound like anybody we know? Furthermore, Mary is declared to be "sovereign", the "salvation of the universe", a "Mediatrix", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "our hope and joy", "ruler of our house", "the glory of heaven" and to whom one can "entrust their soul and eternal salvation".

This is clear, blatant, and egregious heresy and idolatry. It is elevating Mary to the level and role of Jesus Christ, and gives her the credit and praise for what Jesus did. Folks, if you can't see this, then there is no doubt - you have absolutely no discernment whatsoever. Absolutely NONE. You are completely deceived and you've been duped into reawakened pagan goddess worship. This is brought to you by the Roman Catholic Church, who claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit. If there is any clearer of an indicator for the need of Sola Scriptura than this, I don't know what it is.

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Catholics don't just accept whatever church leaders say. Leaders make mistakes and have to be tested, as shown by the example of St. Peter.

Church authority wasn't given by Scripture. It was given by Christ before the NT existed. That said, teachings like Purgatory and the Eucharist are supported in Scripture.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

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Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

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I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

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Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

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I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

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So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

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Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

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I don't think anyone disagrees with this. Mary is not the sole intercessor.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

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Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

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I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

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So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.

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Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)

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I don't want to put words in your mouth so to be clear are you saying no one should offer up nor request intercessory prayer ever? ....

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Not from the departed, but amongst the living. And not if you believe you need someone else's intercessory prayer otherwise Jesus would not be willing nor able to hear or answer you if you go to him directly.

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Ok. So ultimately you agree intercession may be efficacious if requested from someone in the here and now as long as the person making the request understands that they can invoke Jesus directly? Did I get that right?

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I do agree it may be efficacious to give and receive intercessory prayer, but I said nothing about efficacy or "the here and now", whatever that means.

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I was confused by your bit about Jesus not being able or willing to hear or answer. Whatever that means.

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What's so hard to understand about that? It was pretty clear.

It had nothing to do with you not understanding, we both know that. It was just an opportunity for you to lay a pretty lame trap. You had already revealed your new view on time and eternity in an earlier post. Pretty easy to sniff it out. What I don't understand is what point you thought you'd be making if I fell for it and said "yes".

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More word salad from you. Quelle surprise. You seem to indicate Jesus is unable to hear or answer. Seems unlikely for God in the flesh. And yes I have stated I believe there is only "now" for Christ and the communion of saints. You may disagree, but then you'd be wrong though I'm not sure what you believe about much anything except how wrong billions of Catholics are and how righteous your own thoughts must be.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

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Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

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I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

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Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

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I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

---

So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

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Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

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It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view.

Are we "saved" by Jesus' intercession? Or are we perhaps saved by grace through faith? Or, maybe double predestination is a thing and some are predestined to be saved and others to be separated eternally? Maybe TULIP is real. Or, maybe just some are predestined to be saved and those others… well, who can say?

Perhaps you may have said elsewhere to what denomination you belong. If so, I apologize for missing it. Could you please remind me? I'm also curious as to your position on the the historic creeds. What do you make of Jesus' commands that we (Christians) be one?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Still waiting for your evidence that praying to Mary or to saints was taught, believed, or practiced by Jesus or his apostles, or the early Church. You were pretty confident about it. Do you need to walk back, i.e. "crawdad" from your claim?

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Shepard of Hermas - 80 AD:

"But those who are weak and slothful in prayer hesitate to ask anything from the Lord, but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?"


Clement of Alexander - ~150 AD:

In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping, and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer].

Origen - 185 AD

But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep

Rylands Papyrus P470 Egypt - 250 AD

Under thy compassion we take refuge, O Mother of God (Theotokos). Do not despise our petitions in the time of trouble, but from dangers ransom us, singularly holy, singularly blessed.

Yes, the Church fathers did believe and practice intercessory prayer.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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. There's also the Marian dogmas, the Eucharist, Purgatory, etc. There are many unbiblical beliefs and practices in Catholicism. The goal is not to "trash" Catholics but rather to tell the truth. You may think the practice of praying to saints isn't salvivic, and it is possible that in of itself it does not necessarily disqualify one's salvation. But the danger is it may progress to outright idolatry and to a belief in a twisted, distorted gospel, which may indeed disqualify. Based on the dogmas of Mary, and the worship of her evident by all the hymns, prayers, bowing, incantations, etc., it is quite likely many Catholics put their trust in their salvation on Mary, not Jesus. That is not a saving faith.

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Just like the Marian Dogmas, plenty of scriptural and Church fathers evidence for Purgatory and Eucharist.

curtpenn said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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. We are told to pray to Jesus directly.

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Where does it say in the bible to pray directly to Jesus?

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Does it make sense, having access to Christ, to pray to someone who is not our Savior?

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It makes perfect sense to invoke fellow believers to intercede for us even though we ourselves have access to Christ. Do you not intercede for others in prayer?

I do think we are all spinning needlessly but, Jesus forgive me, I am fond of spinning. Seems to me it totally hinges on whether or not one believes that those on the other side of physical death can or may hear and can or may intercede on our behalf, or not. I find nothing in Scripture to prevent or forbid it while finding some verses which support it. At the same time, since becoming an Episcopalian I've developed some knowledge of and appreciation for Catholic thought and practice which, after all, comprises the majority of all Christian thought and theology ever committed to paper. All this while being mindful that I don't hold with all the teachings of Rome (which is why I am not Roman Catholic) just as I never held with all the teachings of the Paige Pattersons and like minded fundamentalists (for lack of a better word) either. It is possible to take the most edifying teachings and practices from both while understanding that no one has complete knowledge as you have so well stated.

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I think you changed what I was saying.

Asking someone face to face to intercede is not praying to them.

Asking God to help someone in need is still praying to God, not that person.

And while it is not explicitly written in Scripture, nowhere in any part of the Bible do we see prayers to a human. And it's dangerously easy if you pray to someone, to forget to keep God holy (you do know what that word means) in his Person and count that human as something other than just a human like us.

As to something being OK if Scripture does not specifically forbid, consider the parable of the Rich Man and the Beggar Lazarus. From what we are told, there is nothing the Rich Man did that violated any of the Ten Commandments, yet he ended up in hell being tormented for his sin.

What sin? Lack of compassion for Lazarus, even though that is not listed as a sin among the Ten Commandments. The point is that there is a spirit to our behavior that may make one thing acceptable or another thing wrong to God. We can debate about whether it is right or wrong to pray a certain way, but I want to be careful not to lead someone into sin by my behavior, even if what I do is not directly sinful. And if someone is not comfortable with something, I do not want to force the issue, lest I create anger rather than understanding, just as Paul wrote that he would keep kosher in diet with observant Jews, even though God had lifted that requirement as part of the new Covenant.

The Holy Spirit did not clock out with the closing of the Canon. The HS is still a disruptive force as it was in Acts 15.
By HS the abolitionists sought to free the slave while other Southern Christians claimed scripture as their authority for slavery. By the HS the church claimed only Men could serve as pastors but a new a new wind (aka HS) blows in our churches. By rhe HS southern churches (again) claimed segregation was the way of God but the HS now claims that notion was stupid.
I think a new wind blows in our gay friendly denominations and churches.
Conservatives have always thought to box up the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit will have none of it, and will continue to bring about God's loving asts in this world

Oldbear83 said:

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And while it is not explicitly written in Scripture, nowhere in any part of the Bible do we see prayers to a human. And it's dangerously easy if you pray to someone, to forget to keep God holy (you do know what that word means) in his Person and count that human as something other than just a human like us.

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What do you exactly mean by "prayers to a human" and "pray to someone?"

I believe some of the confusion between Protestants and Catholics is not defining our terms. When Catholics use the word "pray" we do not mean worship. We use the term as "to ask" like is used in England or our court system.

It think it would be better if we agreed to use the phrase "ask for their intercession."

Daily I ask the saints to intercede on my behalf. I am asking them to take my prayers directly to Jesus. We Catholics know that the saints in heaven are not God. We do know that prayers of a righteous man availeth much. None are more righteous than those in heaven.

Coke Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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And while it is not explicitly written in Scripture, nowhere in any part of the Bible do we see prayers to a human. And it's dangerously easy if you pray to someone, to forget to keep God holy (you do know what that word means) in his Person and count that human as something other than just a human like us.

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What do you exactly mean by "prayers to a human" and "pray to someone?"

I believe some of the confusion between Protestants and Catholics is not defining our terms. When Catholics use the word "pray" we do not mean worship. We use the term as "to ask" like is used in England or our court system.

It think it would be better if we agreed to use the phrase "ask for their intercession."

Daily I ask the saints to intercede on my behalf. I am asking them to take my prayers directly to Jesus. We Catholics know that the saints in heaven are not God. We do know that prayers of a righteous man availeth much. None are more righteous than those in heaven.

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Sorry, I thought my meaning was plain. If I kneel to pray, whomever I address in so doing, I am praying to, regardless of why or using what words.

For me, 'intercession' means physically contacting a human and asking them to help with a third person, such as asking a fellow employee to speak to the boss on your behalf. The significant point is that I make contact with a living person on this earth. I am not arguing about what sort of condition the saints have after they finish here on Earth, but I do pay attention to the fact that there is no reference in the Bible to any person living on Earth speaking with someone no longer living on Earth, save of course Christ's Transfiguration event.

Accordingly I cannot regard contacting a Saint through prayer as a wise idea at all.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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. We are told to pray to Jesus directly.

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Where does it say in the bible to pray directly to Jesus?

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We are only to direct our prayers to God, and Jesus tells us to pray to the Father in his name. We can pray directly to Jesus as well, because he sits at the right hand of God. Jesus said "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." (Matthew 28:18) Therefore praying to Jesus is praying to God - Jesus said he and God are one (John 10:30) Jesus tells us he hears our prayers - "If you ask Me for anything in My name, I will do it." (John 14:14). An example of prayer to Jesus in the New Testament is Stephen: "And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (Acts 7:59) Paul prayed to Jesus about his "thorn in the flesh": "Three times I pleaded with the Lord (Jesus) about this, that it should leave me." (2 Corinthians 12:8)

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

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Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

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I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

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So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.

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Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)

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I don't invoke Mary or any of the saints because I believe I must. I do it because I can and believe the prayers of the righteous are efficacious (which is Biblical in case you missed it). And since we are told
to uphold one another in prayer I believe it delights those we invoke to intercede on our behalf. You go way too far attributing bad intent to too many.

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The only issue is not that you believe you must. The issue is also that you attribute to Mary and saints a capacity that we are not told from Scripture that they have. You are also attributing a capacity of the divine to Mary and the saints if you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers, and that they can effect results. You are also giving to them what you are supposed to give God/Jesus only. Prayer is worship. You don't pray to Mary or the saints, just like you don't pray to righteous people who are living.

I'm not criticizing intent here. But even good intent may lead to wrong action. The road to hell is often paved with good intentions.

Oldbear83 said:

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curtpenn said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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. We are told to pray to Jesus directly.

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Where does it say in the bible to pray directly to Jesus?

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Does it make sense, having access to Christ, to pray to someone who is not our Savior?

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It makes perfect sense to invoke fellow believers to intercede for us even though we ourselves have access to Christ. Do you not intercede for others in prayer?

I do think we are all spinning needlessly but, Jesus forgive me, I am fond of spinning. Seems to me it totally hinges on whether or not one believes that those on the other side of physical death can or may hear and can or may intercede on our behalf, or not. I find nothing in Scripture to prevent or forbid it while finding some verses which support it. At the same time, since becoming an Episcopalian I've developed some knowledge of and appreciation for Catholic thought and practice which, after all, comprises the majority of all Christian thought and theology ever committed to paper. All this while being mindful that I don't hold with all the teachings of Rome (which is why I am not Roman Catholic) just as I never held with all the teachings of the Paige Pattersons and like minded fundamentalists (for lack of a better word) either. It is possible to take the most edifying teachings and practices from both while understanding that no one has complete knowledge as you have so well stated.

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I think you changed what I was saying.

Asking someone face to face to intercede is not praying to them.

Asking God to help someone in need is still praying to God, not that person.

And while it is not explicitly written in Scripture, nowhere in any part of the Bible do we see prayers to a human. And it's dangerously easy if you pray to someone, to forget to keep God holy (you do know what that word means) in his Person and count that human as something other than just a human like us.

As to something being OK if Scripture does not specifically forbid, consider the parable of the Rich Man and the Beggar Lazarus. From what we are told, there is nothing the Rich Man did that violated any of the Ten Commandments, yet he ended up in hell being tormented for his sin.

What sin? Lack of compassion for Lazarus, even though that is not listed as a sin among the Ten Commandments. The point is that there is a spirit to our behavior that may make one thing acceptable or another thing wrong to God. We can debate about whether it is right or wrong to pray a certain way, but I want to be careful not to lead someone into sin by my behavior, even if what I do is not directly sinful. And if someone is not comfortable with something, I do not want to force the issue, lest I create anger rather than understanding, just as Paul wrote that he would keep kosher in diet with observant Jews, even though God had lifted that requirement as part of the new Covenant.

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I do not agree to your usage of "pray to". Pretty sure what that phrase means to you is not the same as what it means to me. I pray to God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I talk to my friends, priest, Mary, saints, et al when I request their intercession. These things are not the same.

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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And while it is not explicitly written in Scripture, nowhere in any part of the Bible do we see prayers to a human. And it's dangerously easy if you pray to someone, to forget to keep God holy (you do know what that word means) in his Person and count that human as something other than just a human like us.

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What do you exactly mean by "prayers to a human" and "pray to someone?"

I believe some of the confusion between Protestants and Catholics is not defining our terms. When Catholics use the word "pray" we do not mean worship. We use the term as "to ask" like is used in England or our court system.

It think it would be better if we agreed to use the phrase "ask for their intercession."

Daily I ask the saints to intercede on my behalf. I am asking them to take my prayers directly to Jesus. We Catholics know that the saints in heaven are not God. We do know that prayers of a righteous man availeth much. None are more righteous than those in heaven.

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Sorry, I thought my meaning was plain. If I kneel to pray, whomever I address in so doing, I am praying to, regardless of why or using what words.

For me, 'intercession' means physically contacting a human and asking them to help with a third person, such as asking a fellow employee to speak to the boss on your behalf. The significant point is that I make contact with a living person on this earth. I am not arguing about what sort of condition the saints have after they finish here on Earth, but I do pay attention to the fact that there is no reference in the Bible to any person living on Earth speaking with someone no longer living on Earth, save of course Christ's Transfiguration event.

Accordingly I cannot regard contacting a Saint through prayer as a wise idea at all.

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Understand your point. We simply disagree. I believe it has enhanced my faith.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

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Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

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I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

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So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.

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Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)

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I don't invoke Mary or any of the saints because I believe I must. I do it because I can and believe the prayers of the righteous are efficacious (which is Biblical in case you missed it). And since we are told
to uphold one another in prayer I believe it delights those we invoke to intercede on our behalf. You go way too far attributing bad intent to too many.

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The only issue is not that you believe you must. The issue is also that you attribute to Mary and saints a capacity that we are not told from Scripture that they have. You are also attributing a capacity of the divine to Mary and the saints if you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers, and that they can effect results. You are also giving to them what you are supposed to give God/Jesus only. Prayer is worship. You don't pray to Mary or the saints, just like you don't pray to righteous people who are living.

I'm not criticizing intent here. But even good intent may lead to wrong action. The road to hell is often paved with good intentions.

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What you assert are opinions just as what I assert are also opinions. You will never convince me that Holy Scripture does not infer the efficacy of the prayers of the saints. Requesting their intercession is not giving them worship. You always come back to that straw man. Find something better (if you are able).

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Still waiting for your evidence that praying to Mary or to saints was taught, believed, or practiced by Jesus or his apostles, or the early Church. You were pretty confident about it. Do you need to walk back, i.e. "crawdad" from your claim?

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There is certainly documented evidence of Marion prayers from the 3rd century. I call that early. I don't think it's necessary to find specific instruction from Jesus or the apostles for something to be inferred. I don't think you have any specific evidence from Jesus or his apostles prohibiting invoking intercessory prayer from the cloud of witnesses which composes the communion of saints.

Not a Roman Catholic as I've said so don't pretend to have extensive knowledge of the Magisterium or Catechism, but your repeated appeal to a somewhat obscure Marion prayer hardly seems sufficient reason to trash the single largest group of Christians now or ever. I believe it does not rise to the level of official dogma, though willing to be proven wrong about this. Regardless, you cannot "prove" from Scripture that those who exist now in the presence of our Lord cannot hear our invocations and cannot intercede for us. In addition, this is not salvific one way or the other. I find the practice personally edifying and commend it to all.

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Third century is not early. Even gnosticism was around well before then, so obviously, heresy doesn't need that much time to develop. That's why Sola Scriptura is necessary.

Saying that because Jesus didn't specifically prohibit something means it's ok to do, is a dangerous and foolish way to think. You can reason that way to justify anything. That's how liberal Christians try to justify sin. Trying to take a single reference about a "cloud of witnesses" and extrapolating that out to a whole belief system of praying to Mary and saints is too much of a reach, especially since there are no corroborating verses that make this out to be more than just a metaphor.

It isn't just those "obscure" prayers (its hardly obscure -it's fully endorsed and promoted by the Catholic Church, having gone through 800 editions, and it is quoted often by bishops and Popes). There's also the Marian dogmas, the Eucharist, Purgatory, etc. There are many unbiblical beliefs and practices in Catholicism. The goal is not to "trash" Catholics but rather to tell the truth. You may think the practice of praying to saints isn't salvivic, and it is possible that in of itself it does not necessarily disqualify one's salvation. But the danger is it may progress to outright idolatry and to a belief in a twisted, distorted gospel, which may indeed disqualify. Based on the dogmas of Mary, and the worship of her evident by all the hymns, prayers, bowing, incantations, etc., it is quite likely many Catholics put their trust in their salvation on Mary, not Jesus. That is not a saving faith.

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What is "saving faith" in your opinion?

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Faith in Jesus Christ for your salvation.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Great question!
BTD said "So what do you do when you have two people who claim revelation from God, but they contradict each other? Which is correct? They can't both be, if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided. Upon what standard of truth will you decide?"

1. "if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided." Neither God nor the Holy Spirit are divided rather humans are divided on their interpretations of God and the Holy Spirit. The overwhelming witness of Scripture is that God is love and by the Holy Spirit we know that love. Psalm 143:10
"Teach me to do your will, for you are my God. Let your good spirit lead me on a level path.

Love is not divided. God is love .

2. You ask, "Upon what standard of truth will you decide?" Let I John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."
The standard of truth is that which reveals God's love. All other standards are secondary and judged by love.
J
3. esus reduced the commandments to two Matthew 22: "37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Then this note by Jesus "40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I would suggest all interpretation of scripture rests on these two commandments.
If any belief or dogma or interpretation falls outside of the love commandment then it is false.

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But what if one says that the Holy Spirit is telling them to allow gay marriage in Church, because it is loving of gays.....but the other says the Holy Spirit is telling them to NOT allow gay marriage in church, because that is loving toward God (and loving gays "as themselves", meaning that to love someone means they shouldn't encourage the sin of that person)? Both say they are following those two greatest commandments.

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That's why we have the magisterium.

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Ok, so that's the same scenario but on a macro scale: what if protestants believe the Holy Spirit is telling them that what the magisterium declared is actually false? And naturally, the magisterium is claimed to be influenced by the Holy Spirit as well. How do you then decide?

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Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church. Jesus never promised that individuals could discern all truth by interpreting Scripture on their own. When there is disagreement, we rely on the tradition handed down to us from those who were closest to Jesus and the Apostles.

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But what if that tradition can't be traced to Jesus or the apostles, and even goes against Scripture? See my example with the Immaculate Conception. Therein lies the problem with the Catholic Church claiming ultimate authority. They can just declare that a tradition goes back to Jesus and his apostles and is fully supported by Scripture, and ONLY THEY have the authority to decide what Scripture says. What gave them that authority? Well, Scripture of course! It's circular, so if bad teaching or tradition, or even outright heresy were to infiltrate the Church, it could potentially get reinforced instead of rightfully discarded.

Jesus never promised that his Church would not be attacked by Satan, only that it would not fail overall. He did promise, however, that false teachers and prophets would indeed come, and that some will be led astray by them. We are taught in Scripture how to guard against this - we are to test everything against his Word, even what church leaders say. We are not taught in Scripture to just accept whatever our leaders tell us. Why? Because man is fallible, but Scripture is infallible. Even Peter, the so-called first Pope, just shortly after he was supposedly given the keys to Jesus' kingdom and authority over his Church, was told by Jesus to "Get behind me Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns." Jesus called Peter, the guy who had supposedly just been appointed father of the Church, SATAN!! He was saying Peter was speaking for Satan! Can there be any clearer of an indication to the Catholic Church that even their leaders aren't immune to being terribly, terribly led astray?

One of the best guiding principles from Jesus is this: "you will know them by their fruits". Here are some of the "fruits" of the Catholic Church: Mary is declared to have been sinless and declared to have been bodily assumed into heaven, where she is prayed to and acts as an intercessor for sinners. Does that sound like anybody we know? Furthermore, Mary is declared to be "sovereign", the "salvation of the universe", a "Mediatrix", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "our hope and joy", "ruler of our house", "the glory of heaven" and to whom one can "entrust their soul and eternal salvation".

This is clear, blatant, and egregious heresy and idolatry. It is elevating Mary to the level and role of Jesus Christ, and gives her the credit and praise for what Jesus did. Folks, if you can't see this, then there is no doubt - you have absolutely no discernment whatsoever. Absolutely NONE. You are completely deceived and you've been duped into reawakened pagan goddess worship. This is brought to you by the Roman Catholic Church, who claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit. If there is any clearer of an indicator for the need of Sola Scriptura than this, I don't know what it is.

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Catholics don't just accept whatever church leaders say. Leaders make mistakes and have to be tested, as shown by the example of St. Peter.

Church authority wasn't given by Scripture. It was given by Christ before the NT existed. That said, teachings like Purgatory and the Eucharist are supported in Scripture.

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What happens to Catholics who don't believe and go against Catholic dogma?

"Church authority wasn't given by Scripture. It was given by Christ before the NT existed" - that belief is based on Church authority's interpretation of Scripture, right?

Purgatory and the Eucharist go against scripture, but that topic we can deal with later.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

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Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

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I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

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Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

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I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

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So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

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Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

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I don't think anyone disagrees with this. Mary is not the sole intercessor.

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Catholics may not consider Mary to be the sole intercessor, but they definitely give her primacy in that role by a long shot. Regardless, the issue rather is that Catholics pray to her for that intercession, which elevates her to a level of divinehood by giving her a level of omniscience and special influence over Jesus. None of this is supported by Scripture. Even worse, this, in conjunction with the statues, hymns, incantations, etc is idolatry.

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

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Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

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I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

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So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.

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Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)

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I don't want to put words in your mouth so to be clear are you saying no one should offer up nor request intercessory prayer ever? ....

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Not from the departed, but amongst the living. And not if you believe you need someone else's intercessory prayer otherwise Jesus would not be willing nor able to hear or answer you if you go to him directly.

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Ok. So ultimately you agree intercession may be efficacious if requested from someone in the here and now as long as the person making the request understands that they can invoke Jesus directly? Did I get that right?

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I do agree it may be efficacious to give and receive intercessory prayer, but I said nothing about efficacy or "the here and now", whatever that means.

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I was confused by your bit about Jesus not being able or willing to hear or answer. Whatever that means.

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What's so hard to understand about that? It was pretty clear.

It had nothing to do with you not understanding, we both know that. It was just an opportunity for you to lay a pretty lame trap. You had already revealed your new view on time and eternity in an earlier post. Pretty easy to sniff it out. What I don't understand is what point you thought you'd be making if I fell for it and said "yes".

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More word salad from you. Quelle surprise. You seem to indicate Jesus is unable to hear or answer. Seems unlikely for God in the flesh. And yes I have stated I believe there is only "now" for Christ and the communion of saints. You may disagree, but then you'd be wrong though I'm not sure what you believe about much anything except how wrong billions of Catholics are and how righteous your own thoughts must be.

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Nowhere did I indicate that Jesus is unable to hear or answer. You are more focused on your spite than getting things right.

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

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Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

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I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

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Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

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I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

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So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

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Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

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It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view.

Are we "saved" by Jesus' intercession? Or are we perhaps saved by grace through faith? Or, maybe double predestination is a thing and some are predestined to be saved and others to be separated eternally? Maybe TULIP is real. Or, maybe just some are predestined to be saved and those others… well, who can say?

Perhaps you may have said elsewhere to what denomination you belong. If so, I apologize for missing it. Could you please remind me? I'm also curious as to your position on the the historic creeds. What do you make of Jesus' commands that we (Christians) be one?

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"It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view." - In what way is my use of "mediator" and "intercessor" incorrect or disingenuous in any way, and how am I using them as a "cudgel"? Your criticism here doesn't make any sense, I don't understand what your problem is with this. Again, it appears to be more out of spite than a pursuit of truth.

I belong to no denomination. I'm simply a believer in Jesus as he's been revealed to us through God's word.

Jesus did not "command" we be one, at least not that I know of. I know, rather, that he prayed that all believers be one (John 17:11, 20-21). I don't know how this is supposed to mean we can pray to and worship Mary and the saints, though.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Still waiting for your evidence that praying to Mary or to saints was taught, believed, or practiced by Jesus or his apostles, or the early Church. You were pretty confident about it. Do you need to walk back, i.e. "crawdad" from your claim?

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Shepard of Hermas - 80 AD:

"But those who are weak and slothful in prayer hesitate to ask anything from the Lord, but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?"


Clement of Alexander - ~150 AD:

In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping, and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer].

Origen - 185 AD

But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep

Rylands Papyrus P470 Egypt - 250 AD

Under thy compassion we take refuge, O Mother of God (Theotokos). Do not despise our petitions in the time of trouble, but from dangers ransom us, singularly holy, singularly blessed.

Yes, the Church fathers did believe and practice intercessory prayer.

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Your first quote from the Shephard of Hermas emphasizes prayer to the LORD. Nothing in there about praying to Mary, saints, or even angels.

Your second quote from Clement of Alexander says nothing about praying to Mary or saints.

Your third quote from Origen is saying that departed saints pray for people, not that people pray to saints.

Your fourth quote from the Rylands Papyrus is dated 200 years after the time of Jesus and the apostles. This does not link it to Jesus, his apostles, or even the apostles to the apostles. Even gnosticism had the Ryland Papyrus beat, havng appeared earlier, and it was rejected for not being traced to the beliefs, teaching, and practice of the early church.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.

---

Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)

---

I don't want to put words in your mouth so to be clear are you saying no one should offer up nor request intercessory prayer ever? ....

---

Not from the departed, but amongst the living. And not if you believe you need someone else's intercessory prayer otherwise Jesus would not be willing nor able to hear or answer you if you go to him directly.

---

Ok. So ultimately you agree intercession may be efficacious if requested from someone in the here and now as long as the person making the request understands that they can invoke Jesus directly? Did I get that right?

---

I do agree it may be efficacious to give and receive intercessory prayer, but I said nothing about efficacy or "the here and now", whatever that means.

---

I was confused by your bit about Jesus not being able or willing to hear or answer. Whatever that means.

---

What's so hard to understand about that? It was pretty clear.

It had nothing to do with you not understanding, we both know that. It was just an opportunity for you to lay a pretty lame trap. You had already revealed your new view on time and eternity in an earlier post. Pretty easy to sniff it out. What I don't understand is what point you thought you'd be making if I fell for it and said "yes".

---

More word salad from you. Quelle surprise. You seem to indicate Jesus is unable to hear or answer. Seems unlikely for God in the flesh. And yes I have stated I believe there is only "now" for Christ and the communion of saints. You may disagree, but then you'd be wrong though I'm not sure what you believe about much anything except how wrong billions of Catholics are and how righteous your own thoughts must be.

---

Nowhere did I indicate that Jesus is unable to hear or answer. You are more focused on your spite than getting things right.

---

"Not from the departed, but amongst the living. And not if you believe you need someone else's intercessory prayer otherwise Jesus would not be willing nor able to hear or answer you if you go to him directly." What does this even mean? What is it you are "focused on"?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

---

I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

---

So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

---

Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

---

It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view.

Are we "saved" by Jesus' intercession? Or are we perhaps saved by grace through faith? Or, maybe double predestination is a thing and some are predestined to be saved and others to be separated eternally? Maybe TULIP is real. Or, maybe just some are predestined to be saved and those others… well, who can say?

Perhaps you may have said elsewhere to what denomination you belong. If so, I apologize for missing it. Could you please remind me? I'm also curious as to your position on the the historic creeds. What do you make of Jesus' commands that we (Christians) be one?

---

Jesus did not "command" we be one, at least not that I know of. I know, rather, that he prayed that all believers be one (John 17:11, 20-21). I don't know how this is supposed to mean we can pray to and worship Mary and the saints, though.

---

John 17:21-23

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

More semantic games from you re "commanded" vs "prayed". Typical. FWIW, nothing to do with Mary, but plenty to do with unity.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

---

I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

---

So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

---

Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

---

It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view.

Are we "saved" by Jesus' intercession? Or are we perhaps saved by grace through faith? Or, maybe double predestination is a thing and some are predestined to be saved and others to be separated eternally? Maybe TULIP is real. Or, maybe just some are predestined to be saved and those others… well, who can say?

Perhaps you may have said elsewhere to what denomination you belong. If so, I apologize for missing it. Could you please remind me? I'm also curious as to your position on the the historic creeds. What do you make of Jesus' commands that we (Christians) be one?

---

"It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view." - In what way is my use of "mediator" and "intercessor" incorrect or disingenuous in any way, and how am I using them as a "cudgel"? Your criticism here doesn't make any sense, I don't understand what your problem is with this. Again, it appears to be more out of spite than a pursuit of truth.

---

That my criticism "doesn't make any sense" and that you "don't understand what your problem is with this" is a big part of your problem if true.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

---

I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

---

So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

---

Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

---

It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view.

Are we "saved" by Jesus' intercession? Or are we perhaps saved by grace through faith? Or, maybe double predestination is a thing and some are predestined to be saved and others to be separated eternally? Maybe TULIP is real. Or, maybe just some are predestined to be saved and those others… well, who can say?

Perhaps you may have said elsewhere to what denomination you belong. If so, I apologize for missing it. Could you please remind me? I'm also curious as to your position on the the historic creeds. What do you make of Jesus' commands that we (Christians) be one?

---

I belong to no denomination. I'm simply a believer in Jesus as he's been revealed to us through God's word.

---

So, what does the First Church of Tarp Dusting believe is salvific? Rather what the original post is all about after all.

Answers In Genesis:

https://answersingenesis.org/

Institute For Creation Research:

https://www.icr.org/

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.

---

Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)

---

I don't want to put words in your mouth so to be clear are you saying no one should offer up nor request intercessory prayer ever? ....

---

Not from the departed, but amongst the living. And not if you believe you need someone else's intercessory prayer otherwise Jesus would not be willing nor able to hear or answer you if you go to him directly.

---

Ok. So ultimately you agree intercession may be efficacious if requested from someone in the here and now as long as the person making the request understands that they can invoke Jesus directly? Did I get that right?

---

I do agree it may be efficacious to give and receive intercessory prayer, but I said nothing about efficacy or "the here and now", whatever that means.

---

I was confused by your bit about Jesus not being able or willing to hear or answer. Whatever that means.

---

What's so hard to understand about that? It was pretty clear.

It had nothing to do with you not understanding, we both know that. It was just an opportunity for you to lay a pretty lame trap. You had already revealed your new view on time and eternity in an earlier post. Pretty easy to sniff it out. What I don't understand is what point you thought you'd be making if I fell for it and said "yes".

---

More word salad from you. Quelle surprise. You seem to indicate Jesus is unable to hear or answer. Seems unlikely for God in the flesh. And yes I have stated I believe there is only "now" for Christ and the communion of saints. You may disagree, but then you'd be wrong though I'm not sure what you believe about much anything except how wrong billions of Catholics are and how righteous your own thoughts must be.

---

Nowhere did I indicate that Jesus is unable to hear or answer. You are more focused on your spite than getting things right.

---

"Not from the departed, but amongst the living. And not if you believe you need someone else's intercessory prayer otherwise Jesus would not be willing nor able to hear or answer you if you go to him directly." What does this even mean? What is it you are "focused on"?

---

Your comprehension is faulty. Read it carefully. I did not say that Jesus is unable to hear or answer. If you still can't get it, let me know and I'll walk you through it.

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

---

I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

---

So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

---

Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

---

It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view.

Are we "saved" by Jesus' intercession? Or are we perhaps saved by grace through faith? Or, maybe double predestination is a thing and some are predestined to be saved and others to be separated eternally? Maybe TULIP is real. Or, maybe just some are predestined to be saved and those others… well, who can say?

Perhaps you may have said elsewhere to what denomination you belong. If so, I apologize for missing it. Could you please remind me? I'm also curious as to your position on the the historic creeds. What do you make of Jesus' commands that we (Christians) be one?

---

Jesus did not "command" we be one, at least not that I know of. I know, rather, that he prayed that all believers be one (John 17:11, 20-21). I don't know how this is supposed to mean we can pray to and worship Mary and the saints, though.

---

John 17:21-23

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

More semantic games from you re "commanded" vs "prayed". Typical. FWIW, nothing to do with Mary, but plenty to do with unity.

---

This WHOLE CHAPTER (Ch 17) in John is known as the "High Priestly Prayer" of Jesus that he prayed for us, his body of believers. Look back at verse 9:

"I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one."..........(v 20): "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you...."

Jesus is not "commanding" us to be one. He is ASKING THE FATHER to "keep (us believers) in his name" so that we may be one. You're just not being accurate and precise with Scripture here. It seems to be a pattern. And no one is arguing against unity, so I don't see the relevance with that.

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

---

I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

---

So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

---

Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

---

It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view.

Are we "saved" by Jesus' intercession? Or are we perhaps saved by grace through faith? Or, maybe double predestination is a thing and some are predestined to be saved and others to be separated eternally? Maybe TULIP is real. Or, maybe just some are predestined to be saved and those others… well, who can say?

Perhaps you may have said elsewhere to what denomination you belong. If so, I apologize for missing it. Could you please remind me? I'm also curious as to your position on the the historic creeds. What do you make of Jesus' commands that we (Christians) be one?

---

"It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view." - In what way is my use of "mediator" and "intercessor" incorrect or disingenuous in any way, and how am I using them as a "cudgel"? Your criticism here doesn't make any sense, I don't understand what your problem is with this. Again, it appears to be more out of spite than a pursuit of truth.

---

That my criticism "doesn't make any sense" and that you "don't understand what your problem is with this" is a big part of your problem if true.

---

Explain it to me then. If you can't, then you obviously don't really understand it either. What's the issue with my use of the terms "mediator" and "intercessor", and how am I using it to "cudgel" Catholics?

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

---

I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

---

So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

---

Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

---

It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view.

Are we "saved" by Jesus' intercession? Or are we perhaps saved by grace through faith? Or, maybe double predestination is a thing and some are predestined to be saved and others to be separated eternally? Maybe TULIP is real. Or, maybe just some are predestined to be saved and those others… well, who can say?

Perhaps you may have said elsewhere to what denomination you belong. If so, I apologize for missing it. Could you please remind me? I'm also curious as to your position on the the historic creeds. What do you make of Jesus' commands that we (Christians) be one?

---

I belong to no denomination. I'm simply a believer in Jesus as he's been revealed to us through God's word.

---

So, what does the First Church of Tarp Dusting believe is salvific? Rather what the original post is all about after all.

---

Never heard of that church. Your spite is really blinding you.

Saving faith is what is salvivic.