BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Frodo: " It's unbiblical "

Thanks Frodo, but I cited quite a few scriptures that support it. Since you believe differently, please examine those scriptures and explain how they do not mean what they say, or at least show me the verses which say you cannot lose your salvation even if you never do anything to serve the Lord?

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So is frodo correct about your belief? You believe our salvation is dependent on our performance? You believe in a works based salvation?

A simple "yes", or "no, because" will do. BE CLEAR.

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Read my long post. As I explained, it had plenty of scriptural support.

Understanding the point may take more effort than trying to win an argument, but in the end it is far more valuable to gain wisdom, for both of us. As I said, if you believe my position is wrong, please explain those how verses mean something other than what Christ Himself said.

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So.....is that a yes or no?

Why do you have such trouble answering clearly and directly, like frodo was easily able to do? This doesn't speak well to your conviction.

Now, please, answer the question. Don't refer me to previous posts. It's very easy to say "yes" or "no". We can't advance the discussion if you go on like this.

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I have answered you. I took the trouble to support it with Scripture.

All you have to do is consider it.

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A simple "yes", or "no".

Your pride is getting the better of you.

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My pride is not at issue.

The question at hand is not one which can be answered with binary answers.

Again, I took the time and trouble I did, to give you both a solid, Bible-supported answer.

You are the one refusing to even consider it, so with all due respect, the pride problem here is yours, sir.

Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Frodo: " It's unbiblical "

Thanks Frodo, but I cited quite a few scriptures that support it. Since you believe differently, please examine those scriptures and explain how they do not mean what they say, or at least show me the verses which say you cannot lose your salvation even if you never do anything to serve the Lord?

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So is frodo correct about your belief? You believe our salvation is dependent on our performance? You believe in a works based salvation?

A simple "yes", or "no, because" will do. BE CLEAR.

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Read my long post. As I explained, it had plenty of scriptural support.

Understanding the point may take more effort than trying to win an argument, but in the end it is far more valuable to gain wisdom, for both of us. As I said, if you believe my position is wrong, please explain those how verses mean something other than what Christ Himself said.

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So.....is that a yes or no?

Why do you have such trouble answering clearly and directly, like frodo was easily able to do? This doesn't speak well to your conviction.

Now, please, answer the question. Don't refer me to previous posts. It's very easy to say "yes" or "no". We can't advance the discussion if you go on like this.

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I have answered you. I took the trouble to support it with Scripture.

All you have to do is consider it.

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A simple "yes", or "no".

Your pride is getting the better of you.

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My pride is not at issue.

The question at hand is not one which can be answered with binary answers.

Again, I took the time and trouble I did, to give you both a solid, Bible-supported answer.

You are the one refusing to even consider it, so with all due respect, the pride problem here is yours, sir.

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NO, you did NOT give a solid answer. You gave a contradictory one. You argued that we can lose our salvation if we don't do works, and then when asked how many works, or lack thereof, it takes to lose your salvation, you said we lose salvation if we lose faith.

I've been repeatedly telling you this. You've just been dodging it, as usual. Well, which is it? Can you finally answer my question and resolve this contradiction in your beliefs?

No, it is not "contradictory". In fact, despite Frodo's opinion it's very much Biblical.

I posted twenty Scripture references to support my position, while you and Frodo have not posted anything like it. My references were Christ's own words, by the way.

Christ warns His followers against losing their 'saltiness', for example, going so far as to say losing your saltiness makes you worthless, to be thrown away.

I pointed out how Christ said a tree is identified by its fruit, and those which do not bear fruit are "thrown into the furnace."

So let's start there. How do you interpret those verses, if they are not warnings to do works once we say we are Christians?

Oldbear83 said:

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No, it is not "contradictory". In fact, despite Frodo's opinion it's very much Biblical.

I posted twenty Scripture references to support my position, while you and Frodo have not posted anything like it. My references were Christ's own words, by the way.

Christ warns His followers against losing their 'saltiness', for example, going so far as to say losing your saltiness makes you worthless, to be thrown away.

I pointed out how Christ said a tree is identified by its fruit, and those which do not bear fruit are "thrown into the furnace."

So let's start there. How do you interpret those verses, if they are not warnings to do works once we say we are Christians?

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How can I debate your position, if I don't know what your position IS? You are running away from your contradiction. Simply denying it's a contradiction doesn't make it so.

Did you , or did you not say that we lose our salvation if we don't do works, and then later you said it was if we lose our faith? Those are YOUR WORDS. HOW is that not a contradiction??

We simply can't start at the interpretation of those verses like you want, until you first clear this up. I'm willing to move on to your verses, but you're stonewalling the discussion by refusing to answer this. If you don't answer this, then it tells me that either you are even sure yourself what you believe, or you just don't have any real conviction in your beliefs.

I'm ready to discuss those verses.....ball's in your court.

Oldbear83 said:

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Frodo: " It's unbiblical "

Thanks Frodo, but I cited quite a few scriptures that support it. Since you believe differently, please examine those scriptures and explain how they do not mean what they say, or at least show me the verses which say you cannot lose your salvation even if you never do anything to serve the Lord?

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.

You quoted Scripture that has nothing to do with it.
I did look at them. I can post some verses for you tomorrow , it's late.

Oldbear83 said:

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To start again, my position comes from Scripture, specifically the words and instructions from our Lord Jesus Christ. There are some who like to make an argument using Pauls' letters, which are fine except when someone applies an interpretation which would contradict what Christ said. Others make an argument purely out of their emotion and ego, such as those 'churches' which teach heresies like the Prosperity Gospel.

In Luke 6:35-36, Christ makes clear how we are to act: "But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."
In Matthew 5:3-12 Jesus preaches the Beatitudes, which clearly promise rewards for such behaviors as meekness, mercy, peacemaking and perseverance in the face of attacks.

But in verse 13 (also Luke 14:34-35), Christ also clearly warns "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

This can only mean that the very thing that makes us pleasing to God can be lost. Christ is very clearly warning that we can lose our way. The same warning is in Mark 9:50

Some people like to imagine that everyone in Heaven will be the same. Yet in Matthew 6:20 Christ directs us to "store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal." That is proof that what we do now will be remembered when we are in Heaven, and therefore to focus on what matters. And what we do as followers of Christ serves not only to create our own reward or punishment, even after entering Heaven, but identifies what our motivation and identity as persons.

Christ clearly told us (Luke 6:44-45) "Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of."

Also, it seems very easy to just believe and be saved. Christ warns in Matthew 7:13-14 to "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Remember that Jesus said this to the people who were following Him!

Even more, Jesus warns in Matthew 7:19-20 that "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." This is further proof that we must act in our faith, not just say we have faith.

Verse 21 even says so: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

In Luke 11:35 Jesus warns us to "See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness."

It shouldn't come as a surprise, really. If we are followers of Christ, we should be doing what He did. And what we see in the Gospel accounts is Christ doing works all the time, from teaching and healing and moral lessons to personal example. So we should do the same, as Jesus commanded. Matthew 10:24 clearly says "The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master." In Matthew 12:50 (also Mark 3:34-35, Luke 15:20) Christ clearly said "whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

In Matthew 16:27 Christ clearly said "the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done."

In Matthew 20:26-28 (also Mark 10:43-45) Jesus again commands us to act as He did, saying "whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Consider also Christ's parable of the wedding banquet. A man who was invited to the wedding, and who came, was thrown out because he was not dressed appropriately (Matthew 22:11-13). This is a clear warning that we must act as followers of Christ, not just claim the name because He offered the hope to us.

Consider also the parable of the bags of gold (Matthew 25:14-30, Luke 19:11-26). All three of the men concerned were servants of the Master, but the one who did not do as he was commanded lost his place and his blessing from the Master.

With all this said, I want to be very clear that we not only do not earn our Salvation through our works, we cannot do so. Our Lord Jesus Christ would not have endured all He did, if it were not necessary in order for us to be saved. Further, every good act we do is made possible by the grace of God, so there is glory for God when we do good, but it is not our merit from it.

But it is possible for us to lose what we have been given, otherwise Christ would not have said so often that we need to be watchful and take care. John 6:66 reminds us that after a hard saying from Christ, "many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him"

Jesus spoke plainly: "Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them." (John 14:21)

Therefore we are to believe, and act on that belief according to Christ's example and direction. We are redeemed by Christ's atonement on our behalf, but only if we keep his commands and act on them do we show we live in the faith.

If you disagree with my understanding on this matter, please explain how all of these verses, from the word of Christ Himself, do not mean what they plainly say. Show the verses which support your understanding, that we may all have hearts and minds which please the Lord, and do not bicker like those who have neither faith nor hope.

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I really don't like wading into threads like this but this seems to be a genuine post so I will respond with a genuine reply.

To begin with an (imperfect) illustration, let's say to get into Heaven there is a turnstile and the only way through is with a God-granted token. When I hear the question, "Do you need faith or works?" I think that's like asking, "Do you need heads or tails?" In my view they are inextricably linked as one is an outward sign of the other.

At various points of the Bible there are warnings and admonishments towards box-checking on both sides.

No, you cannot just offer your sacrifices at the temple/drop in money at the collection plate one day of the week and think that you are necessarily saved if you don't have a changed heart and live the life the rest of the week.

On the flip side, if you say that you have faith in Jesus and are therefore redeemed but don't make real efforts towards living the life as He taught us, do you really have faith?

Like a sacrament, doing works can be an outward and visible sign of an inward condition. Like prayer, it can be used for glorifying God, spreading God's love around us, and also act as a temperature reading of our own internal faith.

Now, it's really easy to get into routines of works and not realize that your inner faith is actually not in a good place and there are Biblical warnings about that. But, just as much people can become complacent in their faith and then the way they interact with others around them might suffer (works) which is an outward sign that their inner faith isn't currently up to God's standards. There are Biblical warnings about that as well.

To summarize, in my view faith is required and works are an outward sign of that inner faith. But ultimately we will never be perfect and therefore it is only by God's grace that we might be granted the token.

John 10:27-30 KJV


[27] "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [30] I and my Father are one."


God gives us the Earnest, Meaning the Down Payment of the Spirit:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 KJV

[21] "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; [22] who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."


The Holy Spirit Seals the believer

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV

[13] "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [14] which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

Believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption:

Ephesians 4:30 KJV

[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Those who call upon the Lord for Salvador, believing that He died and rose again for their sins shall be saved. If you could lose it, the Bible wouldn't declare this as a fact:

Romans 10:13 KJV
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Many more:

So explain why Jesus said if you lose your saltiness, you are good for nothing but to be thrown away.

Why did Christ say that a tree which does not bear fruit will be cut down and burned?

Oldbear83 said:

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So explain why Jesus said if you lose your saltiness, you are good for nothing but to be thrown away.

Why did Christ say that a tree which doe snot bear fruit will be cut down and burned?

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Why does "saltiness" and "fruit" have to be works, not belief?

And if it does mean works, then you just debunked yourself, didn't you? Because you said losing our salvation was based on faith.......you see the problem here, don't you?

First, thank you Frodo for answering and providing Scripture.

Frodo: John 10:27-30 KJV

[27] "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [30] I and my Father are one."

That's a great promise Frodo, but you may notice that it does not define who is or is not a "believer". I understand there are some who believe 'once saved, always saved', but it may more properly be termed 'IF saved, always saved', and that is why it matters to consider everything Christ said, not just look for the parts we like.

Frodo: "God gives us the Earnest, Meaning the Down Payment of the Spirit:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 KJV

[21] "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; [22] who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."


Like the first verse, it's good but also lacks specific definition of who is, or is not, truly in Christ.

Frodo: "The Holy Spirit Seals the believer

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV

[13] "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [14] which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

The same problem as before.

Frodo: "Believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption:

Ephesians 4:30 KJV

"[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

The same problem as before.

Frodo: "Those who call upon the Lord for Salvador, believing that He died and rose again for their sins shall be saved. If you could lose it, the Bible wouldn't declare this as a fact:

Romans 10:13 KJV
"[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

And yet again, the same problem.


Now you have also not addressed the verses I brought up. If they do not mean what Christ said, what do they mean? I post the key verses here for your reference:

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."
Luke 6:13 (also Luke 14:34-35)

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
Matthew 7:19-20

Consider how Paul wrote in Philippians 2:12 that we should "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling". Why, exactly, does he say that?

Consider that in Matthew 24:13 (also Mark 13:13), Christ noted that "the one who stands firm to the end will be saved". Why exactly does our Lord say that?

Peter 4:17 tells us "it is time for judgment to begin with God's household", which I find telling.
In all of this, I hope we can agree that God's Word does not contradict itself, so it is good to consider all of these and reason what we should understand.

Perhaps there are depths to this matter which should be considered.

I look forward to your thoughts, Frodo.

Oldbear83 said:

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First, thank you Frodo for answering and providing Scripture.

Frodo: John 10:27-30 KJV

[27] "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [30] I and my Father are one."

That's a great promise Frodo, but you may notice that it does not define who is or is not a "believer". I understand there are some who believe 'once saved, always saved', but it may more properly be termed 'IF saved, always saved', and that is why it matters to consider everything Christ said, not just look for the parts we like.

Frodo: "God gives us the Earnest, Meaning the Down Payment of the Spirit:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 KJV

[21] "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; [22] who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."


Like the first verse, it's good but also lacks specific definition of who is, or is not, truly in Christ.

Frodo: "The Holy Spirit Seals the believer

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV

[13] "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [14] which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

The same problem as before.

Frodo: "Believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption:

Ephesians 4:30 KJV

"[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

The same problem as before.

Frodo: "Those who call upon the Lord for Salvador, believing that He died and rose again for their sins shall be saved. If you could lose it, the Bible wouldn't declare this as a fact:

Romans 10:13 KJV
"[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

And yet again, the same problem.


Now you have also not addressed the verses I brought up. If they do not mean what Christ said, what do they mean? I post the key verses here for your reference:

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."
Luke 6:13 (also Luke 14:34-35)

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
Matthew 7:19-20

Consider how Paul wrote in Philippians 2:12 that we should "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling". Why, exactly, does he say that?

Consider that in Matthew 24:13 (also Mark 13:13), Christ noted that "the one who stands firm to the end will be saved". Why exactly does our Lord say that?

Peter 4:17 tells us "it is time for judgment to begin with God's household", which I find telling.
In all of this, I hope we can agree that God's Word does not contradict itself, so it is good to consider all of these and reason what we should understand.

Perhaps there are depths to this matter which should be considered.

I look forward to your thoughts, Frodo.

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Try all you want, your contradictions and my questions don't go away.

You haven't answered why "fruit" and "saltiness" aren't referring to belief. We can add "standing firm" and "working out your salvation" - why aren't they in regard to one's belief, i.e. standing firm in your faith? "Working out" your belief?

And how do you reconcile your stance here with what you said about losing one's salvation being based on faith, not works?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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First, thank you Frodo for answering and providing Scripture.

Frodo: John 10:27-30 KJV

[27] "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [30] I and my Father are one."

That's a great promise Frodo, but you may notice that it does not define who is or is not a "believer". I understand there are some who believe 'once saved, always saved', but it may more properly be termed 'IF saved, always saved', and that is why it matters to consider everything Christ said, not just look for the parts we like.

Frodo: "God gives us the Earnest, Meaning the Down Payment of the Spirit:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 KJV

[21] "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; [22] who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."


Like the first verse, it's good but also lacks specific definition of who is, or is not, truly in Christ.

Frodo: "The Holy Spirit Seals the believer

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV

[13] "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [14] which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

The same problem as before.

Frodo: "Believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption:

Ephesians 4:30 KJV

"[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

The same problem as before.

Frodo: "Those who call upon the Lord for Salvador, believing that He died and rose again for their sins shall be saved. If you could lose it, the Bible wouldn't declare this as a fact:

Romans 10:13 KJV
"[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

And yet again, the same problem.


Now you have also not addressed the verses I brought up. If they do not mean what Christ said, what do they mean? I post the key verses here for your reference:

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."
Luke 6:13 (also Luke 14:34-35)

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
Matthew 7:19-20

Consider how Paul wrote in Philippians 2:12 that we should "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling". Why, exactly, does he say that?

Consider that in Matthew 24:13 (also Mark 13:13), Christ noted that "the one who stands firm to the end will be saved". Why exactly does our Lord say that?

Peter 4:17 tells us "it is time for judgment to begin with God's household", which I find telling.
In all of this, I hope we can agree that God's Word does not contradict itself, so it is good to consider all of these and reason what we should understand.

Perhaps there are depths to this matter which should be considered.

I look forward to your thoughts, Frodo.

---

Try all you want, your contradictions and my questions don't go away.

You haven't answered why "fruit" and "saltiness" aren't referring to belief. We can add "standing firm" and "working out your salvation" - why aren't they in regard to one's belief, i.e. standing firm in your faith? "Working out" your belief?

And how do you reconcile your stance here with what you said about losing one's salvation being based on faith, not works?

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Fruit is the results of your works. Saltiness is about your willingness to spread the Word of God. Working out your Salvation has to do with making sure you are in the Faith, because many people believe that they are saved, but they are not because their Faith isn't truly in Christ and His death and Resurrection for Salvation. Stand firm just means to be Strong in the Faith against opposition.

I never said you could lose your Salvation.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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First, thank you Frodo for answering and providing Scripture.

Frodo: John 10:27-30 KJV

[27] "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [30] I and my Father are one."

That's a great promise Frodo, but you may notice that it does not define who is or is not a "believer". I understand there are some who believe 'once saved, always saved', but it may more properly be termed 'IF saved, always saved', and that is why it matters to consider everything Christ said, not just look for the parts we like.

Frodo: "God gives us the Earnest, Meaning the Down Payment of the Spirit:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 KJV

[21] "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; [22] who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."


Like the first verse, it's good but also lacks specific definition of who is, or is not, truly in Christ.

Frodo: "The Holy Spirit Seals the believer

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV

[13] "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [14] which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

The same problem as before.

Frodo: "Believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption:

Ephesians 4:30 KJV

"[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

The same problem as before.

Frodo: "Those who call upon the Lord for Salvador, believing that He died and rose again for their sins shall be saved. If you could lose it, the Bible wouldn't declare this as a fact:

Romans 10:13 KJV
"[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

And yet again, the same problem.


Now you have also not addressed the verses I brought up. If they do not mean what Christ said, what do they mean? I post the key verses here for your reference:

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."
Luke 6:13 (also Luke 14:34-35)

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
Matthew 7:19-20

Consider how Paul wrote in Philippians 2:12 that we should "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling". Why, exactly, does he say that?

Consider that in Matthew 24:13 (also Mark 13:13), Christ noted that "the one who stands firm to the end will be saved". Why exactly does our Lord say that?

Peter 4:17 tells us "it is time for judgment to begin with God's household", which I find telling.
In all of this, I hope we can agree that God's Word does not contradict itself, so it is good to consider all of these and reason what we should understand.

Perhaps there are depths to this matter which should be considered.

I look forward to your thoughts, Frodo.

---

Try all you want, your contradictions and my questions don't go away.

You haven't answered why "fruit" and "saltiness" aren't referring to belief. We can add "standing firm" and "working out your salvation" - why aren't they in regard to one's belief, i.e. standing firm in your faith? "Working out" your belief?

And how do you reconcile your stance here with what you said about losing one's salvation being based on faith, not works?

---

Fruit is the results of your works. Saltiness is about your willingness to spread the Word of God. Working out your Salvation has to do with making sure you are in the Faith, because many people believe that they are saved, but they are not because their Faith isn't truly in Christ and His death and Resurrection for Salvation. Stand firm just means to be Strong in the Faith against opposition.

I never said you could lose your Salvation.

---

My post was meant for OldBear, but since we're here - if "fruit" is the results of your works, then what does it mean that if there is no fruit, the tree will be cut down and cast into the fire? Is this saying the results of your works are a requirement for salvation? If "saltiness" is the willingness to spread the gospel, then does it mean that if you're not willing to spread the gospel you won't be saved? OldBear said we lose our salvation if we lose our faith - so how do these verses reconcile with that?

We agree that "standing firm" and "working out your salvation" doesn't speak to works, but rather to faith.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

First, thank you Frodo for answering and providing Scripture.

Frodo: John 10:27-30 KJV

[27] "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [30] I and my Father are one."

That's a great promise Frodo, but you may notice that it does not define who is or is not a "believer". I understand there are some who believe 'once saved, always saved', but it may more properly be termed 'IF saved, always saved', and that is why it matters to consider everything Christ said, not just look for the parts we like.

Frodo: "God gives us the Earnest, Meaning the Down Payment of the Spirit:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 KJV

[21] "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; [22] who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."


Like the first verse, it's good but also lacks specific definition of who is, or is not, truly in Christ.

Frodo: "The Holy Spirit Seals the believer

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV

[13] "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [14] which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

The same problem as before.

Frodo: "Believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption:

Ephesians 4:30 KJV

"[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

The same problem as before.

Frodo: "Those who call upon the Lord for Salvador, believing that He died and rose again for their sins shall be saved. If you could lose it, the Bible wouldn't declare this as a fact:

Romans 10:13 KJV
"[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

And yet again, the same problem.


Now you have also not addressed the verses I brought up. If they do not mean what Christ said, what do they mean? I post the key verses here for your reference:

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."
Luke 6:13 (also Luke 14:34-35)

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
Matthew 7:19-20

Consider how Paul wrote in Philippians 2:12 that we should "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling". Why, exactly, does he say that?

Consider that in Matthew 24:13 (also Mark 13:13), Christ noted that "the one who stands firm to the end will be saved". Why exactly does our Lord say that?

Peter 4:17 tells us "it is time for judgment to begin with God's household", which I find telling.
In all of this, I hope we can agree that God's Word does not contradict itself, so it is good to consider all of these and reason what we should understand.

Perhaps there are depths to this matter which should be considered.

I look forward to your thoughts, Frodo.

---

Try all you want, your contradictions and my questions don't go away.

You haven't answered why "fruit" and "saltiness" aren't referring to belief. We can add "standing firm" and "working out your salvation" - why aren't they in regard to one's belief, i.e. standing firm in your faith? "Working out" your belief?

And how do you reconcile your stance here with what you said about losing one's salvation being based on faith, not works?

---

Fruit is the results of your works. Saltiness is about your willingness to spread the Word of God. Working out your Salvation has to do with making sure you are in the Faith, because many people believe that they are saved, but they are not because their Faith isn't truly in Christ and His death and Resurrection for Salvation. Stand firm just means to be Strong in the Faith against opposition.

I never said you could lose your Salvation.

---

My post was meant for OldBear, but since we're here - if "fruit" is the results of your works, then what does it mean that if there is no fruit, the tree will be cut down and cast into the fire? Is this saying the results of your works are a requirement for salvation? If "saltiness" is the willingness to spread the gospel, then does it mean that if you're not willing to spread the gospel you won't be saved? OldBear said we lose our salvation if we lose our faith - so how do these verses reconcile with that?

We agree that "standing firm" and "working out your salvation" doesn't speak to works, but rather to faith.

---

I don't think this verse is saying that works have anything to do with Salvation. I believe it is saying that true Christians are the only ones able to produce fruit for God and those who don't care fruit are not children of God in the first place. There are other interpretations. The salt has nothing to do with Salvation, it's telling believers to spread the Gospel. I also must say that these verses are to Israel under Law, not those under Grace anyway.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

First, thank you Frodo for answering and providing Scripture.

Frodo: John 10:27-30 KJV

[27] "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [30] I and my Father are one."

That's a great promise Frodo, but you may notice that it does not define who is or is not a "believer". I understand there are some who believe 'once saved, always saved', but it may more properly be termed 'IF saved, always saved', and that is why it matters to consider everything Christ said, not just look for the parts we like.

Frodo: "God gives us the Earnest, Meaning the Down Payment of the Spirit:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 KJV

[21] "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; [22] who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."


Like the first verse, it's good but also lacks specific definition of who is, or is not, truly in Christ.

Frodo: "The Holy Spirit Seals the believer

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV

[13] "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [14] which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

The same problem as before.

Frodo: "Believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption:

Ephesians 4:30 KJV

"[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

The same problem as before.

Frodo: "Those who call upon the Lord for Salvador, believing that He died and rose again for their sins shall be saved. If you could lose it, the Bible wouldn't declare this as a fact:

Romans 10:13 KJV
"[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

And yet again, the same problem.


Now you have also not addressed the verses I brought up. If they do not mean what Christ said, what do they mean? I post the key verses here for your reference:

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."
Luke 6:13 (also Luke 14:34-35)

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
Matthew 7:19-20

Consider how Paul wrote in Philippians 2:12 that we should "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling". Why, exactly, does he say that?

Consider that in Matthew 24:13 (also Mark 13:13), Christ noted that "the one who stands firm to the end will be saved". Why exactly does our Lord say that?

Peter 4:17 tells us "it is time for judgment to begin with God's household", which I find telling.
In all of this, I hope we can agree that God's Word does not contradict itself, so it is good to consider all of these and reason what we should understand.

Perhaps there are depths to this matter which should be considered.

I look forward to your thoughts, Frodo.

---

Try all you want, your contradictions and my questions don't go away.

You haven't answered why "fruit" and "saltiness" aren't referring to belief. We can add "standing firm" and "working out your salvation" - why aren't they in regard to one's belief, i.e. standing firm in your faith? "Working out" your belief?

And how do you reconcile your stance here with what you said about losing one's salvation being based on faith, not works?

---

Fruit is the results of your works. Saltiness is about your willingness to spread the Word of God. Working out your Salvation has to do with making sure you are in the Faith, because many people believe that they are saved, but they are not because their Faith isn't truly in Christ and His death and Resurrection for Salvation. Stand firm just means to be Strong in the Faith against opposition.

I never said you could lose your Salvation.

---

Good afternoon, Frodo. Thanks again for your response and courtesy.

I agree that "fruit" is clearly works done to serve God. But I look at Christ's examples and see more than preaching. Christ could have just told sermons and taught HIs followers, but in town after town Christ first did works, from healing people to feeding people. Christ was always about actions before words.

It troubles me to see so many who say they are Christians, but who don't feel obliged to do anything, on the excuse that because they are Christians they are somehow exempt from that duty, even though Christ's example to us is clear.

After all, Christ's parable of the Good Samaritan was not a man who preached at the man in the ditch, but a man who went out of his way to help someone in need, ahead of everything else.

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

First, thank you Frodo for answering and providing Scripture.

Frodo: John 10:27-30 KJV

[27] "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [30] I and my Father are one."

That's a great promise Frodo, but you may notice that it does not define who is or is not a "believer". I understand there are some who believe 'once saved, always saved', but it may more properly be termed 'IF saved, always saved', and that is why it matters to consider everything Christ said, not just look for the parts we like.

Frodo: "God gives us the Earnest, Meaning the Down Payment of the Spirit:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 KJV

[21] "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; [22] who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."


Like the first verse, it's good but also lacks specific definition of who is, or is not, truly in Christ.

Frodo: "The Holy Spirit Seals the believer

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV

[13] "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [14] which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

The same problem as before.

Frodo: "Believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption:

Ephesians 4:30 KJV

"[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

The same problem as before.

Frodo: "Those who call upon the Lord for Salvador, believing that He died and rose again for their sins shall be saved. If you could lose it, the Bible wouldn't declare this as a fact:

Romans 10:13 KJV
"[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

And yet again, the same problem.


Now you have also not addressed the verses I brought up. If they do not mean what Christ said, what do they mean? I post the key verses here for your reference:

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."
Luke 6:13 (also Luke 14:34-35)

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
Matthew 7:19-20

Consider how Paul wrote in Philippians 2:12 that we should "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling". Why, exactly, does he say that?

Consider that in Matthew 24:13 (also Mark 13:13), Christ noted that "the one who stands firm to the end will be saved". Why exactly does our Lord say that?

Peter 4:17 tells us "it is time for judgment to begin with God's household", which I find telling.
In all of this, I hope we can agree that God's Word does not contradict itself, so it is good to consider all of these and reason what we should understand.

Perhaps there are depths to this matter which should be considered.

I look forward to your thoughts, Frodo.

---

Try all you want, your contradictions and my questions don't go away.

You haven't answered why "fruit" and "saltiness" aren't referring to belief. We can add "standing firm" and "working out your salvation" - why aren't they in regard to one's belief, i.e. standing firm in your faith? "Working out" your belief?

And how do you reconcile your stance here with what you said about losing one's salvation being based on faith, not works?

---

Fruit is the results of your works. Saltiness is about your willingness to spread the Word of God. Working out your Salvation has to do with making sure you are in the Faith, because many people believe that they are saved, but they are not because their Faith isn't truly in Christ and His death and Resurrection for Salvation. Stand firm just means to be Strong in the Faith against opposition.

I never said you could lose your Salvation.

---

Good afternoon, Frodo. Thanks again for your response and courtesy......

---

This is so hilarious. So passive agressive.

Do you really think people haven't read through this thread? Good grief.

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

First, thank you Frodo for answering and providing Scripture.

Frodo: John 10:27-30 KJV

[27] "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [30] I and my Father are one."

That's a great promise Frodo, but you may notice that it does not define who is or is not a "believer". I understand there are some who believe 'once saved, always saved', but it may more properly be termed 'IF saved, always saved', and that is why it matters to consider everything Christ said, not just look for the parts we like.

Frodo: "God gives us the Earnest, Meaning the Down Payment of the Spirit:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 KJV

[21] "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; [22] who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."


Like the first verse, it's good but also lacks specific definition of who is, or is not, truly in Christ.

Frodo: "The Holy Spirit Seals the believer

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV

[13] "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [14] which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

The same problem as before.

Frodo: "Believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption:

Ephesians 4:30 KJV

"[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

The same problem as before.

Frodo: "Those who call upon the Lord for Salvador, believing that He died and rose again for their sins shall be saved. If you could lose it, the Bible wouldn't declare this as a fact:

Romans 10:13 KJV
"[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

And yet again, the same problem.


Now you have also not addressed the verses I brought up. If they do not mean what Christ said, what do they mean? I post the key verses here for your reference:

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."
Luke 6:13 (also Luke 14:34-35)

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
Matthew 7:19-20

Consider how Paul wrote in Philippians 2:12 that we should "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling". Why, exactly, does he say that?

Consider that in Matthew 24:13 (also Mark 13:13), Christ noted that "the one who stands firm to the end will be saved". Why exactly does our Lord say that?

Peter 4:17 tells us "it is time for judgment to begin with God's household", which I find telling.
In all of this, I hope we can agree that God's Word does not contradict itself, so it is good to consider all of these and reason what we should understand.

Perhaps there are depths to this matter which should be considered.

I look forward to your thoughts, Frodo.

---

Try all you want, your contradictions and my questions don't go away.

You haven't answered why "fruit" and "saltiness" aren't referring to belief. We can add "standing firm" and "working out your salvation" - why aren't they in regard to one's belief, i.e. standing firm in your faith? "Working out" your belief?

And how do you reconcile your stance here with what you said about losing one's salvation being based on faith, not works?

---

Fruit is the results of your works. Saltiness is about your willingness to spread the Word of God. Working out your Salvation has to do with making sure you are in the Faith, because many people believe that they are saved, but they are not because their Faith isn't truly in Christ and His death and Resurrection for Salvation. Stand firm just means to be Strong in the Faith against opposition.

I never said you could lose your Salvation.

---

Good afternoon, Frodo. Thanks again for your response and courtesy.

I agree that "fruit" is clearly works done to serve God. But I look at Christ's examples and see more than preaching. Christ could have just told sermons and taught HIs followers, but in town after town Christ first did works, from healing people to feeding people. Christ was always about actions before words.

It troubles me to see so many who say they are Christians, but who don't feel obliged to do anything, on the excuse that because they are Christians they are somehow exempt from that duty, even though Christ's example to us is clear.

After all, Christ's parable of the Good Samaritan was not a man who preached at the man in the ditch, but a man who went out of his way to help someone in need, ahead of everything else.

---

No one is arguing that Christians don't have the duty to obey Jesus and follow his example. The central question of the debate between you and frodo is whether we are saved or not based on our performance of that duty, or whether or not we can lose our salvation if we fall short of it. If salvation is maintained based on our performance, then how successful do we have to be at doing our duty in order to to not lose our salvation?

And if you believe this, how do you square this with your conflicting belief that loss of salvation is based on loss of faith, not failure of duty?

BTD, I imagine people have indeed read this thread.

I simply do not believe they will take the same impression from the posts that you claim.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BTD, I imagine people have indeed read this thread.

I simply do not believe they will take the same impression from the posts that you claim.

---

They can easily detect the animosity you had towards frodo, as well as towards me.

So your feigned politeness with frodo to "show me up" is just laughable.

And you are still playing dodgeball. That is what people who read this thread definitely have noticed, I'm sure.

My courtesy to Frodo is not "feigned". I do appreciate his posts here. I have been trying to move the discussion forward, and Frodo is helping us do that.

Oldbear83 said:

---

My courtesy to Frodo is not "feigned". I do appreciate his posts here. I have been trying to move the discussion forward, and Frodo is helping us do that.

---

I'm the one trying to move the discussion forward, and you are the one stonewalling it. Not admitting to your obvious contradiction and refusing to clear it up while dodging pertinent questions doesn't allow for productive communication. I still have no idea what exactly your position is.

Yes, your courtesy was a sudden contrast to the usual tone you had with him. Its obvious as to why the timing. People aren't dumb.

So you think following me to a game thread on basketball and implying I should "gouge my eyes out" for some sin you imagine, is your idea of 'courtesy', BTD?

I have taken the trouble to

A) thank a number of people for their posts,
B) post a large number of relevant Scripture which supports my position,
C) explain why these are consistent and relevant

none of which you have even attempted.

So yes, I believe anyone reading through this thread will make valid decisions on the intent and quality of the arguments and support. Just not in the way you think.

Oldbear83 said:

---

So you think following me to a game thread on basketball and implying I should "gouge my eyes out" for some sin you imagine, is your idea of 'courtesy', BTD?

I have taken the trouble to

A) thank a number of people for their posts,
B) post a large number of relevant Scripture which supports my position,
C) explain why these are consistent and relevant

none of which you have even attempted.

So yes, I believe anyone reading through this thread will make valid decisions on the intent and quality of the arguments and support. Just not in the way you think.

---

I didn't "follow you" to the game thread. People from this forum also follow Baylor sports too, you know! I noticed there you having a spat with someone and being angry - the same behavior that you chide others here for.

No, I didn't intend the "gouging eyes" to be courteous. That wasn't the point. The point was to be poignant. The point was to challenge your notion that you're not taking Jesus "exact words" out of context.

So about that - if your eye has ever caused you to sin, did you "gouge it out" like Jesus specifically says to do? And what do you think of Jesus implying that if you don't do this, you won't go to heaven ("It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell")?

Oldbear83 said:

---

I have taken the trouble to

A) thank a number of people for their posts,
B) post a large number of relevant Scripture which supports my position,
C) explain why these are consistent and relevant

none of which you have even attempted.

---

As I have already explained, multiple times, I have been more than willing to engage in the scripture, but it's impossible to move forward without knowing what your position exactly is. You keep bringing up that I haven't attempted to give scripture, all while dodging this so that I can't even know what it is that I'm supposed to be debating.

I asked if you were game. I asked are you ready for the scripture discussion. But so far, you've shown you aren't game. Ironically, you're dodging questions I had ABOUT scripture. You don't even realize that I HAD given scripture.

We can have the discussion, if you would just tell us what your position is. Do you believe that our salvation is dependent on our performance, on our works? Or do you believe it is dependent on our faith? You said BOTH.. Answer?

BTD, you have chosen to be malicious, pernicious and refuse to accept valid responses.

Further, you double down when your behavior is explained to you.

Accordingly, there is no purpose to responding to your attacks.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BTD, you have chosen to be malicious, pernicious and refuse to accept valid responses.

Further, you double down when your behavior is explained to you.

Accordingly, there is no purpose to responding to your attacks.

---

This is a laughable dodge, and everyone can see it.

You are making yourself look really bad. I can't believe that you think that people in this forum are going to buy this.

No one who is aligned with truth has to resort to what you're doing. You are amongst the worst in this forum, and it's really sad that this is coming from a professed Christian.

** sigh **

As expected.

Matthew 10:14 and Jude 1:9, then.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BTD, you have chosen to be malicious, pernicious and refuse to accept valid responses.

Further, you double down when your behavior is explained to you.

Accordingly, there is no purpose to responding to your attacks.

---

^^^ Folks, this is OldBear "moving the discussion forward".

SMH.

Oldbear83 said:

---

** sigh **

As expected.

Matthew 10:14 and Jude 1:9, then.

---

Self righteous dismissal doesn't "move the discussion forward".

Sorry for the long delay, 90sBear, but thank you for your post and I would like to respond to it, please:

"To begin with an (imperfect) illustration, let's say to get into Heaven there is a turnstile and the only way through is with a God-granted token. When I hear the question, "Do you need faith or works?" I think that's like asking, "Do you need heads or tails?" In my view they are inextricably linked as one is an outward sign of the other."

Well said. You may have noticed how I focused on the words and works of Christ. That is, if we are to follow and serve Christ as our Lord, it follows that we should speak as He spoke, and act as He acted, to the best of our ability.

And Christ was constantly mixing action with words.


"At various points of the Bible there are warnings and admonishments towards box-checking on both sides ... you cannot just offer your sacrifices at the temple/drop in money at the collection plate one day of the week and think that you are necessarily saved if you don't have a changed heart and live the life the rest of the week."

Agreed. To put it another way, we sometimes may forget that first-century Christians faced great persecution and openly saying you were a Christian put you in danger of several kinds. Today, it's quite common for people to claim Christianity, and indeed to do so as a means of gaining favor in certain social circles.

Sadly, that has led to the rise of social churches which teach feel-good doctrines but miss most of the kind of people Christ meant for us to be,


"On the flip side, if you say that you have faith in Jesus and are therefore redeemed but don't make real efforts towards living the life as He taught us, do you really have faith?

Like a sacrament, doing works can be an outward and visible sign of an inward condition. Like prayer, it can be used for glorifying God, spreading God's love around us, and also act as a temperature reading of our own internal faith."

I always enjoyed JRR Tolkien's description of heaven, as a place where there was a great song, and there was great joy in singing your part well. I suppose I enjoy that image because I have played in both bands and orchestras, and always took great pleasure in being part of a well-done concert.

I believe that living in faith means we will produce works, and in turn we should - from time to time - consider whether we are doing more than talking as if we are Christians.


"To summarize, in my view faith is required and works are an outward sign of that inner faith. But ultimately we will never be perfect and therefore it is only by God's grace that we might be granted the token."

Excellent point. I might add that the value of a good church includes having brothers and sisters in Christ who can help you grow and walk in faith demonstrated by bearing fruit in works.

Thank you again, 90sBear.

Oldbear83 said:

---

"To summarize, in my view faith is required and works are an outward sign of that inner faith. But ultimately we will never be perfect and therefore it is only by God's grace that we might be granted the token."

Excellent point. I might add that the value of a good church includes having brothers and sisters in Christ who can help you grow and walk in faith demonstrated by bearing fruit in works.

Thank you again, 90sBear.

---

You're demonstrating my entire point. If you agree with what he said here, then you are in agreement with frodo because that's exactly what frodo's been saying. Yet, you spent about 100 posts angrily arguing with him. This is exactly what happened with the water baptism question - after throwing a very long fit, it ended up that you actually agreed with us.

Simply unbelievable. I know you're not going to process this, but whatever. Que sera, sera.

Guys, Something to consider, is that we are here to share view points and learn. There will be times where we might go into a situation with a certain view points and then slowly we realize that our view point is changing. We can't know everything, none of us do. I just want to see as many people saved as possible. It's my true heart here and why I am here.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Guys, Something to consider, is that we are here to share view points and learn. There will be times where we might go into a situation with a certain view points and then slowly we realize that our view point is changing. We can't know everything, none of us do. I just want to see as many people saved as possible. It's my true heart here and why I am here.

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Thanks Frodo, I agree with your spirit and purpose. I am willing to talk with anyone who shows good intent and courtesy.

I also think that when in doubt, consider Scripture, especially that which may have been missed before. Humans are notoriously inconsistent, but God is trustworthy, and His message is the same at all times. Too many people try to play Scripture to say what they want to hear, it's far more important for us to accept the truth of God's word.

Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Guys, Something to consider, is that we are here to share view points and learn. There will be times where we might go into a situation with a certain view points and then slowly we realize that our view point is changing. We can't know everything, none of us do. I just want to see as many people saved as possible. It's my true heart here and why I am here.

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Thanks Frodo, I agree with your spirit and purpose. I am willing to talk with anyone who shows good intent and courtesy.

I also think that when in doubt, consider Scripture, especially that which may have been missed before. Humans are notoriously inconsistent, but God is trustworthy, and His message is the same at all times. Too many people try to play Scripture to say what they want to hear, it's far more important for us to accept the truth of God's word.

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If you truly had the spirit and purpose you say you do, if you really care about people being saved, then shouldn't you say what it is you believe about how to get saved, instead of dodging those questions? What if someone is reading your posts - wouldn't they be confused by you saying that salvation is by works, and then later say it was by faith? And when I pointed this apparent contradiction out to you, what "spirit" is it in, that you won't admit it and refuse to clear it up, all while attacking me for being "angry" and "bitter" for asking about it? I mean, if you care about people getting saved, wouldn't you want to be absolutely clear to those who might be reading your comments instead of confusing them?

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Guys, Something to consider, is that we are here to share view points and learn. There will be times where we might go into a situation with a certain view points and then slowly we realize that our view point is changing. We can't know everything, none of us do. I just want to see as many people saved as possible. It's my true heart here and why I am here.

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But it's impossible to share one's viewpoint if you're asked what that viewpoint is, and you dodge the question. Also, it doesn't speak to "learning" if you just attack the person asking the question that you're dodging, instead of answering the question. That speaks to pride and obstinance. Neither is it helpful for anyone else to learn, if you aren't being clear about what it is you want other people to learn.