BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Got an answer yet to my question? Apparently you must not have much conviction over your claim about evolution if you're unwilling to answer such a simple question.

---

I already answered your question.

---

It wasn't your question.

---

Who's was it then?

---

Do you honestly not know how to tell? Does it not say who I was replying to in the upper right corner? And when you log in, aren't the responses to your comments marked with a blue highlight?

---

Oooohhh. I never noticed that before. Usually, when people respond to posts, they quote what they are responding to. Never knew you could respond directly without quoting. But the Evolution topic was brought up by me.

What was the question in question?
..

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

They must ALL place their faith in Jesus Christ a.d His death and resurrection for their sins to save them

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

"You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

Matthew 5:13-16

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

"You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

Matthew 5:13-16

---

I see nothing in those verses to support your assertion.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

"You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

Matthew 5:13-16

---

I see nothing in those verses to support your assertion.

---

When your spiritual eyes are closed, you won't see it even when Jesus says it.

Wangchung said:

---

James 2:14
Faith without works is dead.

---

the thief on the cross completed no other work than to believe..

He was invited and believed in Jesus.. that is sufficient.

Now, our belief is shown by our "works" not just the things we do but how we do them

Jesus gave us two commands, love him and love others as we love him..

Many stumble on the second one

4th and Inches said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

James 2:14
Faith without works is dead.

---

the thief on the cross completed no other work than to believe..

He was invited and believed in Jesus.. that is sufficient.

Now, our belief is shown by our "works" not just the things we do but how we do them

Jesus gave us two commands, love him and love others as we love him..

Many stumble on the second one

---

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+man+on+the+middle+cross+told+me&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:b548c4fd,vid:h7RI0ApeRPg,st:0

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

"You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

Matthew 5:13-16

---

I see nothing in those verses to support your assertion.

---

When your spiritual eyes are closed, you won't see it even when Jesus says it.

---

Since you believe that your Spiritual eyes are better than mine, explain the verse in context and how it makes your point.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

"You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

Matthew 5:13-16

---

I see nothing in those verses to support your assertion.

---

When your spiritual eyes are closed, you won't see it even when Jesus says it.

---

Since you believe that your Spiritual eyes are better than mine, explain the verse in context and how it makes your point.

---

OK, let's review. Remember, the words in bold below are those of Christ:

"You are the salt of the earth."

Jesus is clearly speaking to His followers here.

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

This is a serious warning, that despite being followers of Christ, these people may lose what matters, and so become worthless, to be "thrown out and trampled underfoot"

That is a very important warning which none of us should ignore!

Christ repeats the message in another way, saying

"You are the light of the world. "

Again, this can only be speaking to His believers.

"A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. "

This is the same message as before, but given a positive emphasis. We are meant to testify to Christ through the way we work. Our works are not meritorious in our salvation, but they are required of us through our love for Christ.

Christ goes on:

"In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

Confirming our good deeds show the character of our new life. If we believe, we will produce good works.

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

"You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

Matthew 5:13-16

---

I see nothing in those verses to support your assertion.

---

When your spiritual eyes are closed, you won't see it even when Jesus says it.

---

Since you believe that your Spiritual eyes are better than mine, explain the verse in context and how it makes your point.

---

OK, let's review. Remember, the words in bold below are those of Christ:

"You are the salt of the earth."

Jesus is clearly speaking to His followers here.

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

This is a serious warning, that despite being followers of Christ, these people may lose what matters, and so become worthless, to be "thrown out and trampled underfoot"

That is a very important warning which none of us should ignore!

Christ repeats the message in another way, saying

"You are the light of the world. "

Again, this can only be speaking to His believers.

"A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. "

This is the same message as before, but given a positive emphasis. We are meant to testify to Christ through the way we work. Our works are not meritorious in our salvation, but they are required of us through our love for Christ.

Christ goes on:

"In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

Confirming our good deeds show the character of our new life. If we believe, we will produce good works.

---

I agree. This passage is talking about sharing the Gospel and the Work of God. Yes, if we hide His truth, it is worthless to others. I agree that our Salvation has nothing to do with good works. Good works are something we do because as Born Again Believers, we should want to please our Lord from the heart and with our works.

I don't disagree with any of this.

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Frodo has implied, perhaps unintentionally, that believing is all we need to do. Take the gift and move on.

But accepting Christ means accepting Him as your Lord. Christ made clear over and over that we need to do more than just say some magic phrase or password. If we have accepted Christ we will show fruit in our works.

This is why Christ's warning is so important. Let me post it here again:

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Christ is clearly warning us not to take our Salvation for granted. And yet, sadly many who call themselves 'Christian' act in ways that are very much in the character of their former nature, not of a life in Christ.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Frodo has implied, perhaps unintentionally, that believing is all we need to do. Take the gift and move on.

But accepting Christ means accepting Him as your Lord. Christ made clear over and over that we need to do more than just say some magic phrase or password. If we have accepted Christ we will show fruit in our works.

This is why Christ's warning is so important. Let me post it here again:

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Christ is clearly warning us not to take our Salvation for granted. And yet, sadly many who call themselves 'Christian' act in ways that are very much in the character of their former nature, not of a life in Christ.

---

I don't see that in that passage. It is clearly about sharing our Faith with others, not Salvation. Also, Salvation is by Faith in Christ Alone & what He did on the cross to pay for our sins. When you include works in Salvation, you give yourself credit and take the credit away from Christ and what HE did for us. I do believe that true faith results in a submission to God and His will, so works are necessary as believers, but not for Salvation. They are necessary as evidence of true faith. In Romans, Paul says that believer are created UNTO good works, not because of good works. We are created to do them because Christ saved Us. A true Believer will be convicted and led by the Holy Spirit. I believe believer should have good works, but not as par of our Salvation, but as Acts of Faith...

I posted Christ's exact words. Take it up with Him.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Frodo has implied, perhaps unintentionally, that believing is all we need to do. Take the gift and move on.

But accepting Christ means accepting Him as your Lord. Christ made clear over and over that we need to do more than just say some magic phrase or password. If we have accepted Christ we will show fruit in our works.

This is why Christ's warning is so important. Let me post it here again:

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Christ is clearly warning us not to take our Salvation for granted. And yet, sadly many who call themselves 'Christian' act in ways that are very much in the character of their former nature, not of a life in Christ.

---

So are you saying that someone can truly believe in their heart that they are a sinner, and they believe and trust in Jesus for their salvation.....but if they don't produce a sufficient amount of works, they WON'T be saved? How would you square this with what Jesus said, that "whoever believes in Him (Jesus) shall have everlasting life"?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Frodo has implied, perhaps unintentionally, that believing is all we need to do. Take the gift and move on.

But accepting Christ means accepting Him as your Lord. Christ made clear over and over that we need to do more than just say some magic phrase or password. If we have accepted Christ we will show fruit in our works.

This is why Christ's warning is so important. Let me post it here again:

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Christ is clearly warning us not to take our Salvation for granted. And yet, sadly many who call themselves 'Christian' act in ways that are very much in the character of their former nature, not of a life in Christ.

---

So are you saying that someone can truly believe in their heart that they are a sinner, and they believe and trust in Jesus for their salvation.....but if they don't produce a sufficient amount of works, they WON'T be saved? How would you square this with what Jesus said, that "whoever believes in Him (Jesus) shall have everlasting life"?

---

I am saying - as Jesus Himself said - that there are some who imagine that saying they are Christian and follow Christ means they don't have any duty beyond that.

Belief, like all parts of life, needs nourishment and growth, or it dies. What you do as a Christian drives whether you really ARE a Christian.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Frodo has implied, perhaps unintentionally, that believing is all we need to do. Take the gift and move on.

But accepting Christ means accepting Him as your Lord. Christ made clear over and over that we need to do more than just say some magic phrase or password. If we have accepted Christ we will show fruit in our works.

This is why Christ's warning is so important. Let me post it here again:

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Christ is clearly warning us not to take our Salvation for granted. And yet, sadly many who call themselves 'Christian' act in ways that are very much in the character of their former nature, not of a life in Christ.

---

So are you saying that someone can truly believe in their heart that they are a sinner, and they believe and trust in Jesus for their salvation.....but if they don't produce a sufficient amount of works, they WON'T be saved? How would you square this with what Jesus said, that "whoever believes in Him (Jesus) shall have everlasting life"?

---

I am saying - as Jesus Himself said - that there are some who imagine that saying they are Christian and follow Christ means they don't have any duty beyond that.

Belief, like all parts of life, needs nourishment and growth, or it dies. What you do as a Christian drives whether you really ARE a Christian.

---

We're not talking about Christian duty, we're talking about salvation. Are you saying that if a truly believing Christian fails to adequately fulfill his duty as a follower, he will not be saved? Again, how do you square this with "whoever believes in him will have everlasting life"? There was a question there that you did not answer.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Frodo has implied, perhaps unintentionally, that believing is all we need to do. Take the gift and move on.

But accepting Christ means accepting Him as your Lord. Christ made clear over and over that we need to do more than just say some magic phrase or password. If we have accepted Christ we will show fruit in our works.

This is why Christ's warning is so important. Let me post it here again:

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Christ is clearly warning us not to take our Salvation for granted. And yet, sadly many who call themselves 'Christian' act in ways that are very much in the character of their former nature, not of a life in Christ.

---

So are you saying that someone can truly believe in their heart that they are a sinner, and they believe and trust in Jesus for their salvation.....but if they don't produce a sufficient amount of works, they WON'T be saved? How would you square this with what Jesus said, that "whoever believes in Him (Jesus) shall have everlasting life"?

---

I am saying - as Jesus Himself said - that there are some who imagine that saying they are Christian and follow Christ means they don't have any duty beyond that.

Belief, like all parts of life, needs nourishment and growth, or it dies. What you do as a Christian drives whether you really ARE a Christian.

---

We're not talking about Christian duty, we're talking about salvation. Are you saying that if a truly believing Christian fails to adequately fulfill his duty as a follower, he will not be saved? Again, how do you square this with "whoever believes in him will have everlasting life"? There was a question there that you did not answer.

---

Of course I answered, you just don't like that we have duties beyond checking a box.

Anything we can receive in this life, we can lose. IF you believe is demonstrated by what you do.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Frodo has implied, perhaps unintentionally, that believing is all we need to do. Take the gift and move on.

But accepting Christ means accepting Him as your Lord. Christ made clear over and over that we need to do more than just say some magic phrase or password. If we have accepted Christ we will show fruit in our works.

This is why Christ's warning is so important. Let me post it here again:

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Christ is clearly warning us not to take our Salvation for granted. And yet, sadly many who call themselves 'Christian' act in ways that are very much in the character of their former nature, not of a life in Christ.

---

So are you saying that someone can truly believe in their heart that they are a sinner, and they believe and trust in Jesus for their salvation.....but if they don't produce a sufficient amount of works, they WON'T be saved? How would you square this with what Jesus said, that "whoever believes in Him (Jesus) shall have everlasting life"?

---

I am saying - as Jesus Himself said - that there are some who imagine that saying they are Christian and follow Christ means they don't have any duty beyond that.

Belief, like all parts of life, needs nourishment and growth, or it dies. What you do as a Christian drives whether you really ARE a Christian.

---

We're not talking about Christian duty, we're talking about salvation. Are you saying that if a truly believing Christian fails to adequately fulfill his duty as a follower, he will not be saved? Again, how do you square this with "whoever believes in him will have everlasting life"? There was a question there that you did not answer.

---

Of course I answered, you just don't like that we have duties beyond checking a box.

Anything we can receive in this life, we can lose. IF you believe is demonstrated by what you do.

---

When did I say that I don't like that we have duties, and that I only believe in "checking a box"?? You spend a lot of time and energy creating your own boogeyman to argue with and get angry at.

So, to be clear, you're saying that someone who truly believes in Jesus and trusts in him for their salvation, but they continue to struggle with sin and fail to produce any works, it means their faith wasn't real - they didn't really believe, so they go to hell?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Frodo has implied, perhaps unintentionally, that believing is all we need to do. Take the gift and move on.

But accepting Christ means accepting Him as your Lord. Christ made clear over and over that we need to do more than just say some magic phrase or password. If we have accepted Christ we will show fruit in our works.

This is why Christ's warning is so important. Let me post it here again:

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Christ is clearly warning us not to take our Salvation for granted. And yet, sadly many who call themselves 'Christian' act in ways that are very much in the character of their former nature, not of a life in Christ.

---

So are you saying that someone can truly believe in their heart that they are a sinner, and they believe and trust in Jesus for their salvation.....but if they don't produce a sufficient amount of works, they WON'T be saved? How would you square this with what Jesus said, that "whoever believes in Him (Jesus) shall have everlasting life"?

---

I am saying - as Jesus Himself said - that there are some who imagine that saying they are Christian and follow Christ means they don't have any duty beyond that.

Belief, like all parts of life, needs nourishment and growth, or it dies. What you do as a Christian drives whether you really ARE a Christian.

---

We're not talking about Christian duty, we're talking about salvation. Are you saying that if a truly believing Christian fails to adequately fulfill his duty as a follower, he will not be saved? Again, how do you square this with "whoever believes in him will have everlasting life"? There was a question there that you did not answer.

---

Of course I answered, you just don't like that we have duties beyond checking a box.

Anything we can receive in this life, we can lose. IF you believe is demonstrated by what you do.

---

When did I say that I don't like that we have duties, and that I only believe in "checking a box"?? You spend a lot of time and energy creating your own boogeyman to argue with and get angry at.

So, to be clear, you're saying that someone who truly believes in Jesus and trusts in him for their salvation, but they continue to struggle with sin and fail to produce any works, it means their faith wasn't real - they didn't really believe, so they go to hell?

---

I quoted Christ, then you and Frodo got angry.

You also seem to have great trouble taking what I wrote as is, instead adding things I didn't say so you can ignore it.

But I am glad you admit we are accountable for what we do with what God gives us.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Frodo has implied, perhaps unintentionally, that believing is all we need to do. Take the gift and move on.

But accepting Christ means accepting Him as your Lord. Christ made clear over and over that we need to do more than just say some magic phrase or password. If we have accepted Christ we will show fruit in our works.

This is why Christ's warning is so important. Let me post it here again:

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Christ is clearly warning us not to take our Salvation for granted. And yet, sadly many who call themselves 'Christian' act in ways that are very much in the character of their former nature, not of a life in Christ.

---

So are you saying that someone can truly believe in their heart that they are a sinner, and they believe and trust in Jesus for their salvation.....but if they don't produce a sufficient amount of works, they WON'T be saved? How would you square this with what Jesus said, that "whoever believes in Him (Jesus) shall have everlasting life"?

---

I am saying - as Jesus Himself said - that there are some who imagine that saying they are Christian and follow Christ means they don't have any duty beyond that.

Belief, like all parts of life, needs nourishment and growth, or it dies. What you do as a Christian drives whether you really ARE a Christian.

---

We're not talking about Christian duty, we're talking about salvation. Are you saying that if a truly believing Christian fails to adequately fulfill his duty as a follower, he will not be saved? Again, how do you square this with "whoever believes in him will have everlasting life"? There was a question there that you did not answer.

---

Of course I answered, you just don't like that we have duties beyond checking a box.

Anything we can receive in this life, we can lose. IF you believe is demonstrated by what you do.

---

When did I say that I don't like that we have duties, and that I only believe in "checking a box"?? You spend a lot of time and energy creating your own boogeyman to argue with and get angry at.

So, to be clear, you're saying that someone who truly believes in Jesus and trusts in him for their salvation, but they continue to struggle with sin and fail to produce any works, it means their faith wasn't real - they didn't really believe, so they go to hell?

---

I quoted Christ, then you and Frodo got angry.

You also seem to have great trouble taking what I wrote as is, instead adding things I didn't say so you can ignore it.

But I am glad you admit we are accountable for what we do with what God gives us.

---

No one got angry, except perhaps you.

And the only one who seems to be having trouble is you, since you can't/won't simply answer questions. You keep saying that you do, but you really aren't. Why should we "take what you wrote as is" if it doesn't answer the question?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So, to be clear, you're saying that someone who truly believes in Jesus and trusts in him for their salvation, but they continue to struggle with sin and fail to produce any works, it means their faith wasn't real - they didn't really believe, so they go to hell?

---

On what basis do you judge that someone who produces NO works truly believes Jesus given Christ's words in Luke 11:13? According to Him, even evil people bear some fruit. So why should we accept a premise that the completely barren tree is saved by faith?

All of us struggle with sin, Saint Paul admitted as much in scripture. That is a separate issue, and an important one. The turning away from the life and practices of the church of the first century by western Christianity has made this struggle much more difficult for its practitioners. By turning the Christian life into a series of events where you meet at church anywhere from once (for most) to three times (pretty much only if you are an IFB now) a week and are left to your own devices the rest of the week it divorces secular life from religious observance and sets the stage for failure.

Finally with regards to sin. I think - I know I did for much of my life as violating the law. You're speeding, you get a ticket. And in one sense that is true, in the specific sense of what you have done. But a broader vision of it is sin is missing the mark. "Be ye Holy as I am Holy." So I have come to see sin as taking your rifle out into the yard and instead of putting a nice tight grouping in the middle of the target you empty the magazine spraying its contents all over the yard and neighborhood. That I think gives a fuller picture of the harm and chaos sin causes throughout creation.

Realitybites said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So, to be clear, you're saying that someone who truly believes in Jesus and trusts in him for their salvation, but they continue to struggle with sin and fail to produce any works, it means their faith wasn't real - they didn't really believe, so they go to hell?

---

On what basis do you judge that someone who produces NO works truly believes Jesus given Christ's words in Luke 11:13? According to Him, even evil people bear some fruit. So why should we accept a premise that the completely barren tree is saved by faith?

All of us struggle with sin, Saint Paul admitted as much in scripture. That is a separate issue, and an important one. The turning away from the life and practices of the church of the first century by western Christianity has made this struggle much more difficult for its practitioners. By turning the Christian life into a series of events where you meet at church anywhere from once (for most) to three times (pretty much only if you are an IFB now) a week and are left to your own devices the rest of the week it divorces secular life from religious observance and sets the stage for failure.

Finally with regards to sin. I think - I know I did for much of my life as violating the law. You're speeding, you get a ticket. And in one sense that is true, in the specific sense of what you have done. But a broader vision of it is sin is missing the mark. "Be ye Holy as I am Holy." So I have come to see sin as taking your rifle out into the yard and instead of putting a nice tight grouping in the middle of the target you empty the magazine spraying its contents all over the yard and neighborhood. That I think gives a fuller picture of the harm and chaos sin causes throughout creation.

---

So, are you saying that the answer to my question is YES, that person's faith isn't real, and therefore he is not saved?

I'm really not interested in yet another series of useless arguments, BTD.

But let's be clear. I have always given you answers. They don't cease to exist just because you want to ignore them.

I am not at all angry, but you are not being honest at all on this point, and you know it. It won't help you to continue this kind of behavior, and I write this because I do think that in many other ways, you try to do what is right and care about your faith.

Oldbear83 said:

---

I'm really not interested in yet another series of useless arguments, BTD.

But let's be clear. I have always given you answers. They don't cease to exist just because you want to ignore them.

I am not at all angry, but you are not being honest at all on this point, and you know it. It won't help you to continue this kind of behavior, and I write this because I do think that in many other ways, you try to do what is right and care about your faith.

---

You've given "answers" - they're just never answers to the actual question.

Instead, you go the usual route of self righteousness and accusing the other person of doing exactly what you're doing. It's pure projection. Just like how you're accusing me of being dishonest, when it is clear to everyone that you are dodging the question. You've done this repeatedly in this thread. This is what the atheists, leftists, and false teachers in this forum always do - dodge questions. Are you in the same spirit as they?

... and there it is. Denial, hostility, refusal to advance the discussion, all so you can feed your ego.

I have always answered you. That may change in future, since you never show any Christian behavior in return.

Oldbear83 said:

---

... and there it is. Denial, hostility, refusal to advance the discussion, all so you can feed your ego.

I have always answered you. That may change in future, since you never show any Christian behavior in return.

---

Again, you've "answered", just not the question. And you're still projecting.

Let me help you out - here is an example of an actual answer to my question: "Yes, what I'm saying is that person's faith wasn't real and therefore they are saved" or "No, I'm not saying that".

How can we "advance the discussion" if you are constantly dodging questions? Obviously you are afraid of something.

Seriously, why do you do this over and over? I write in these forums to learn how people think, and to offer help where I can.

You genuinely seem to just pick fights, BTD.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Seriously, why do you do this over and over? I write in these forums to learn how people think, and to offer help where I can.

You genuinely seem to just pick fights, BTD.

---

I'm just wanting answers to my questions, and I call out those who dishonestly dodge them

As for picking fights, that's your department. Its what I see you do with multiple posters, whether its here or in the football or basketball forums.

And, because we both know you will rant until I give you a direct reply, here goes:

BusyTD: "Again, you've "answered", just not the question."

Again, I have answered you, and yes I answered the question. You are upset because I will not parrot the answer you want to hear, so you ignore the answer out of apparent pique.


BusyTD: "And you're still projecting."

Not at all. This thread's topic has stalled because you and Frodo are unwilling to even consider an answer unless it lets you feel you have won something to feed your ego.


BusyTD: "Let me help you out - here is an example of an actual answer to my question: "Yes, what I'm saying is that person's faith wasn't real and therefore they are saved" or "No, I'm not saying that".

That is certainly not 'helping me out'. It's trying - yet again - bully me into giving you what you want, rather than consider the point, to the degree that you ignore Christ's own words, quoted verbatim for you.

BusyTD: "Obviously you are afraid of something."

Vice versa, sir. I feel no worry regarding whether you agree with me. And unlike some, I do not count my own opinion as the final verdict on the issue, but search Scripture and ask my Lord Jesus for guidance and direction.

From the absence of Scripture in your posts, and the absence of charity in your tone, I suggest you are missing in both aspects, or at least would benefit from some Bible Study and talk with your pastor on these points.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Frodo has implied, perhaps unintentionally, that believing is all we need to do. Take the gift and move on.

But accepting Christ means accepting Him as your Lord. Christ made clear over and over that we need to do more than just say some magic phrase or password. If we have accepted Christ we will show fruit in our works.

This is why Christ's warning is so important. Let me post it here again:

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Christ is clearly warning us not to take our Salvation for granted. And yet, sadly many who call themselves 'Christian' act in ways that are very much in the character of their former nature, not of a life in Christ.

---

So are you saying that someone can truly believe in their heart that they are a sinner, and they believe and trust in Jesus for their salvation.....but if they don't produce a sufficient amount of works, they WON'T be saved? How would you square this with what Jesus said, that "whoever believes in Him (Jesus) shall have everlasting life"?

---

Great point. It also flies in the face of Paul's writings to the Church that Salvation is by Grace through Faith without works. Good deeds is works. I believe that James is saying that true faith produces works, but that doesn't mean it is the cause of Salvation..

Question: Does 1+1 = 2?

OldBear: "We must realize that we have to faithfully deal with numerals when performing math, and that it's not enough just to be able to add; we must be able to subtract, multiply, and divide if we are to truly consider ourselves mathematicians. Learning to be accurate and consistent takes time and practice. If we do this, then the answer to the question becomes clear. Consider the calculations of Archimedes and proofs in Euclidean geometry. They guide us daily in our duty as mathematicians to be clear, concise, and reliable in our communication of our computations...."

Q: "Umm, okay. But you didn't answer the question."

Oldbear: "I have given you an answer, you just don't accept it. You just want me to parrot the answer that you want to hear. You don't even quote Archimedes and Euclid enough, as I do. That shows how more mathematically awesome I am compared to you. You are angry, hostile, and in denial. I question your math spirit. Go talk to your math professor for admonishment for your unmathematical behavior, and for proper guidance."

There you go again. Posting what I did not say, and displaying - again - a bitter spirit.

Interesting though, that you conflate our Lord Jesus Christ with a human thinker, and consider your pastor as no more than a professor of an academic subject.