Oldbear83 said:

---

BTD, if you actually want to discuss the verses I posted, please do so. Ideally, you can post other quotes from Christ which show your understanding is correct.

As you have not done that up to now, I stand by my earlier posts.

Thank you.

---

How can you say this? I have been trying to discuss those verses with you. You wouldn't answer any questions.
How about starting there?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BTD, if you actually want to discuss the verses I posted, please do so. Ideally, you can post other quotes from Christ which show your understanding is correct.

As you have not done that up to now, I stand by my earlier posts.

Thank you.

---

How can you say this? I have been trying to discuss those verses with you. You wouldn't answer any questions.
How about starting there?

---

1. I have answered questions over and over. That you don't like the answers, is your problem, not my fault.

2. I have taken pains to post specific verses which plain reading support my point. You have not yet posted even one verse or quote from Christ which shows my understanding to be incorrect, BTD.

This is getting to be the R&P version of Groundhog Day

Waco1947 said:

---

It isn't good if someone's faith is "fed" if their faith is distorted, it should be steered into the right direction"

It appears that you are the sole arbiter of "distorted faith" and you seem to know the "right direction"

From what I gather your "interpretation' of scripture is the only right one.

What is distorted faith?
What is right direction?

---

Everyone here thinks their interpretation is the right one (especially you) and tries to steer others towards their direction.

We can't all be right, if we differ. That's why it's important we we discuss/debate them. Unfortunately, people here seem to only want to view that as "anger", "mean spirited debate", and "confrontational".

Distorted faith is faith that is centered on unbiblical thinking or principles. For example, a faith on a God and Jesus who aren't supernatural.

The right direction is in line with the rightly divided word of God, the bible. But what is the rightly divided word? That's what we can discuss/debate.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BTD, if you actually want to discuss the verses I posted, please do so. Ideally, you can post other quotes from Christ which show your understanding is correct.

As you have not done that up to now, I stand by my earlier posts.

Thank you.

---

How can you say this? I have been trying to discuss those verses with you. You wouldn't answer any questions.
How about starting there?

---

1. I have answered questions over and over. That you don't like the answers, is your problem, not my fault.

2. I have taken pains to post specific verses which plain reading support my point. You have not yet posted even one verse or quote from Christ which shows my understanding to be incorrect, BTD.

This is getting to be the R&P version of Groundhog Day

---

No, you are either very forgetful, or you are in denial.

You referenced Matthew 25 to make the point that Jesus "direct words" were that works were needed to enter heaven. I asked you repeatedly, "Who are the 'least of these' that Jesus refers to?"

You have yet to answer.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BTD, if you actually want to discuss the verses I posted, please do so. Ideally, you can post other quotes from Christ which show your understanding is correct.

As you have not done that up to now, I stand by my earlier posts.

Thank you.

---

How can you say this? I have been trying to discuss those verses with you. You wouldn't answer any questions.
How about starting there?

---

1. I have answered questions over and over. That you don't like the answers, is your problem, not my fault.

2. I have taken pains to post specific verses which plain reading support my point. You have not yet posted even one verse or quote from Christ which shows my understanding to be incorrect, BTD.

This is getting to be the R&P version of Groundhog Day

---

Sorry, you are either very forgetful, or you are in denial.

You referenced Matthew 25 to make the point that Jesus "direct words" were that works were needed to enter heaven. I asked you repeatedly, "Who are the 'least of these' that Jesus refers to?"

You have yet to answer.

---

This stuff again.

And yet you don't understand why 90sBear, like me, noted you are playing at interrogation, not discussion.

You may hold whatever opinion you like, but you are not the authority here, especially when you do not even support your own claims with Scripture.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BTD, if you actually want to discuss the verses I posted, please do so. Ideally, you can post other quotes from Christ which show your understanding is correct.

As you have not done that up to now, I stand by my earlier posts.

Thank you.

---

How can you say this? I have been trying to discuss those verses with you. You wouldn't answer any questions.
How about starting there?

---

1. I have answered questions over and over. That you don't like the answers, is your problem, not my fault.

2. I have taken pains to post specific verses which plain reading support my point. You have not yet posted even one verse or quote from Christ which shows my understanding to be incorrect, BTD.

---

How is it that you are this resistant to understanding? I have tried over and over for you to clarify your position because you were saying contradictory things. I need to understand the point you're making before I can discuss the point your making regarding those verses, and post verses which do not support your view. But you stonewalled every attempt.

And this shows you just haven't paid any attention, or you were too busy patting yourself on the back for "posting more verses than anyone". All throughout this thread, I have given biblical references that counter your position. We can go through them once more, if only you're willing to engage me with intellectual honesty and start answering my questions meant for starting the conversation.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BTD, if you actually want to discuss the verses I posted, please do so. Ideally, you can post other quotes from Christ which show your understanding is correct.

As you have not done that up to now, I stand by my earlier posts.

Thank you.

---

How can you say this? I have been trying to discuss those verses with you. You wouldn't answer any questions.
How about starting there?

---

1. I have answered questions over and over. That you don't like the answers, is your problem, not my fault.

2. I have taken pains to post specific verses which plain reading support my point. You have not yet posted even one verse or quote from Christ which shows my understanding to be incorrect, BTD.

This is getting to be the R&P version of Groundhog Day

---

Sorry, you are either very forgetful, or you are in denial.

You referenced Matthew 25 to make the point that Jesus "direct words" were that works were needed to enter heaven. I asked you repeatedly, "Who are the 'least of these' that Jesus refers to?"

You have yet to answer.

---

This stuff again.

And yet you don't understand why 90sBear, like me, noted you are playing at interrogation, not discussion.

You may hold whatever opinion you like, but you are not the authority here, especially when you do not even support your own claims with Scripture.

---

YOU SEE?! No answer, just attacks.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

James 2:14
Faith without works is dead.

---

I always took that to mean that works were the fruit of faith, proof that God was working through you, not that you could earn points with God by doing works.

Also, keep in mind that what God considers the works of faith depends on your particular circumstances. When the thief on the cross next to Christ rebuked the third man and asked Christ to remember him, God counted that as a work from his faith in Christ. But when Pharisees argued with Jesus because of what they believed, Jesus pointed to their behavior to show their hypocrisy.

We are each called to repentance, confession, and works in faith because of God's love acting through us. Not to put something on a scoreboard, but to reflect the love we receive and pass it on.

---

BTD, this is from the first page, in case you need a reminder about what I have claimed all along.

At no time did I say works earned Heaven.

And Jesus did not spend three years working among us just to sell a magic get-out-of-hell phrase. It's really about becoming the person we were always meant to be. And there are terrible costs to pretending you can get into Heaven just because you want to believe you are going to Heaven.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

James 2:14
Faith without works is dead.

---

I always took that to mean that works were the fruit of faith, proof that God was working through you, not that you could earn points with God by doing works.

Also, keep in mind that what God considers the works of faith depends on your particular circumstances. When the thief on the cross next to Christ rebuked the third man and asked Christ to remember him, God counted that as a work from his faith in Christ. But when Pharisees argued with Jesus because of what they believed, Jesus pointed to their behavior to show their hypocrisy.

We are each called to repentance, confession, and works in faith because of God's love acting through us. Not to put something on a scoreboard, but to reflect the love we receive and pass it on.

---

BTD, this is from the first page, in case you need a reminder about what I have claimed all along.

At no time did I say works earned Heaven.

And Jesus did not spend three years working among us just to sell a magic get-out-of-hell phrase. It's really about becoming the person we were always meant to be. And there are terrible costs to pretending you can get into Heaven just because you want to believe you are going to Heaven.

---

But you frequently argued that works maintained your salvation, that you can lose your salvation, did you not?

You also vigorously argued against frodo who was arguing the very same thing that's you're saying in your post that you just referenced. If your belief wasn't different, why did you argue so much against him?

Those are what I have been saying too. Why are you arguing so hard against me?

You referenced Matthew 25 to make what I think is an argument that one can lose their salvation if they don't show the fruit of their faith by their works, right?

Please read what I actually wrote, not what you assume. It's not as if I have changed my position or did not use plain English.

Because I could explain it again, but I'd say the same thing and if you refuse to actually consider what I am saying, we will simply repeat an endless cycle of noise.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Please read what I actually wrote, not what you assume. It's not as if I have changed my position or did not use plain English.

Because I could explain it again, but I'd say the same thing and if you refuse to actually consider what I am saying, we will simply repeat an endless cycle of noise.

---

See, this is the problem. If someone thinks you're not being clear, and so they ask you a question that would help clarify it, you call them an "interrogator" and refuse to answer the question, and just refer them to "what you already wrote". That is not helpful, nor does it "advance the discussion".

If you truly want to avoid a "groundhog day" or an "endless cycle of noise" then it helps to actually answer their question.

So let me make another attempt at getting you to clarify your position and to discuss Jesus' direct words - what exactly is your point about the "least of these" in Matthew 25, and who are the "least of these" that Jesus is referring to?

You still want to interrogate, not discuss.

This is why you fail.

Oldbear83 said:

---

You still want to interrogate, not discuss.

This is why you fail.

---

You just demonstrated my point to a tee.

Everyone, I tried.

I will refer you all to this exact exchange the next time I get accused of not addressing verses posted by OldBear.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

You still want to interrogate, not discuss.

This is why you fail.

---

You just demonstrated my point to a tee.

Everyone, I tried.

I will refer you all to this exact exchange the next time I get accused of not addressing verses posted by OldBear.

---

Vice versa.

False claims and bullying over and over, just so he can claim to win an internet argument rather than honorably discuss a topic.

That is what BTD has become.

You will find no believer in Scripture who behaves as BTD does here.

You can find such examples in the Inquisition or Witch Trials, of course.

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90's Bear - "No, I wouldn't say that."

Thank you.

/debate

Exactly what debate do you think you are winning here? I came into this thread to share my viewpoints based on my experiences. You haven't changed them. You haven't changed anyone's. If someone asks me my position on faith and works, I would give them the exact same scripture-based link I gave a long time ago and then I'm going to ask them what they think, just like before.

If going to a retreat is a work, so is eating pizza and playing tennis.

I would tell that person that event (going to a retreat, eating pizza, playing tennis) mattered towards them coming to faith. But I would not tell people that "going to a retreat/eating pizza/playing tennis matters in whether one goes to heaven or not". The former is validating the personal significance an event had in a person's life. The latter is making a general statement about salvation that people will interpret wrongly.

Yes, make sure and tell the substance abuse person who was suicidal and went through an ordered faith-based recovery process that turned their life around that there is nothing different between that and eating pizza. Because after all, they are both works.

Did you really think me saying "salvation is by faith, not works" was a complete answer and reflects what I would tell people if they ask me about salvation, and not just a quick summary to succinctly convey my position in this current debate we were having about faith vs. works?

I asked you for your complete view on faith and works in hopes it would lead to an open conversation. That was your response. Blame yourself.

---

I don't think you get that I'm not here to "debate" this topic. I was here to share my personal perspective, experiences and conversations with people who have discussed this with me in the past and how various Christian works (beyond eating pizza and playing tennis) have made a difference in people's lives and helped put or kept them on a path towards faith in Jesus and belief and hope in God's grace.

I honestly don't think you have had much real world experience with ministry, outreaches, missions, or even just genuinely talking to people from a variety of faith backgrounds. If I'm right I would encourage you to do so. Not because I think it will change your view on this topic, but because maybe you would ease up on being so confrontational about it.

Look at this thread...how many people continue to contribute sincere thoughtful posts vs how many have left due it becoming a mean-spirited debate competition? Whose faith is fed by that? Whose purpose does that serve?

If you have had experience in those things then I sincerely apologize and hope you continue to serve faithfully.

Either way I'm departing from this thread. Real truth for me is found in a shared journey towards God, not a an argument in the car over what song should be played on the radio.

---

I appreciate your comments here. FWIW, started experiencing some non-life threatening but persistently painful health issues about 5 months ago that led me to disconnect from this conversation as it was clear our Pharisee-in-Residence wasn't worth the aggravation of listening to over against many other activities that have been more productive and satisfying for me. Pretty sure if you take a few months off you will be able to come right back here and find little has changed.

Folks, I tried.

The record is right there on this page.

curtpenn said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90's Bear - "No, I wouldn't say that."

Thank you.

/debate

Exactly what debate do you think you are winning here? I came into this thread to share my viewpoints based on my experiences. You haven't changed them. You haven't changed anyone's. If someone asks me my position on faith and works, I would give them the exact same scripture-based link I gave a long time ago and then I'm going to ask them what they think, just like before.

If going to a retreat is a work, so is eating pizza and playing tennis.

I would tell that person that event (going to a retreat, eating pizza, playing tennis) mattered towards them coming to faith. But I would not tell people that "going to a retreat/eating pizza/playing tennis matters in whether one goes to heaven or not". The former is validating the personal significance an event had in a person's life. The latter is making a general statement about salvation that people will interpret wrongly.

Yes, make sure and tell the substance abuse person who was suicidal and went through an ordered faith-based recovery process that turned their life around that there is nothing different between that and eating pizza. Because after all, they are both works.

Did you really think me saying "salvation is by faith, not works" was a complete answer and reflects what I would tell people if they ask me about salvation, and not just a quick summary to succinctly convey my position in this current debate we were having about faith vs. works?

I asked you for your complete view on faith and works in hopes it would lead to an open conversation. That was your response. Blame yourself.

---

I don't think you get that I'm not here to "debate" this topic. I was here to share my personal perspective, experiences and conversations with people who have discussed this with me in the past and how various Christian works (beyond eating pizza and playing tennis) have made a difference in people's lives and helped put or kept them on a path towards faith in Jesus and belief and hope in God's grace.

I honestly don't think you have had much real world experience with ministry, outreaches, missions, or even just genuinely talking to people from a variety of faith backgrounds. If I'm right I would encourage you to do so. Not because I think it will change your view on this topic, but because maybe you would ease up on being so confrontational about it.

Look at this thread...how many people continue to contribute sincere thoughtful posts vs how many have left due it becoming a mean-spirited debate competition? Whose faith is fed by that? Whose purpose does that serve?

If you have had experience in those things then I sincerely apologize and hope you continue to serve faithfully.

Either way I'm departing from this thread. Real truth for me is found in a shared journey towards God, not a an argument in the car over what song should be played on the radio.

---

I appreciate your comments here. FWIW, started experiencing some non-life threatening but persistently painful health issues about 5 months ago that led me to disconnect from this conversation as it was clear our Pharisee-in-Residence wasn't worth the aggravation of listening to over against many other activities that have been more productive and satisfying for me. Pretty sure if you take a few months off you will be able to come right back here and find little has changed.

---

You called me a Pharisee because I believe that Christians should put their salvation in Jesus' hands, not Mary's.

You also didn't even know what the bible said about a topic that you argued hard against me about. You didn't even read the chapter in John we were discussing.

The written record is all there. Sorry, I'm really not bothered that my Christian views are being insulted by someone who doesn't even know Christianity.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90's Bear - "No, I wouldn't say that."

Thank you.

/debate

Exactly what debate do you think you are winning here? I came into this thread to share my viewpoints based on my experiences. You haven't changed them. You haven't changed anyone's. If someone asks me my position on faith and works, I would give them the exact same scripture-based link I gave a long time ago and then I'm going to ask them what they think, just like before.

If going to a retreat is a work, so is eating pizza and playing tennis.

I would tell that person that event (going to a retreat, eating pizza, playing tennis) mattered towards them coming to faith. But I would not tell people that "going to a retreat/eating pizza/playing tennis matters in whether one goes to heaven or not". The former is validating the personal significance an event had in a person's life. The latter is making a general statement about salvation that people will interpret wrongly.

Yes, make sure and tell the substance abuse person who was suicidal and went through an ordered faith-based recovery process that turned their life around that there is nothing different between that and eating pizza. Because after all, they are both works.

Did you really think me saying "salvation is by faith, not works" was a complete answer and reflects what I would tell people if they ask me about salvation, and not just a quick summary to succinctly convey my position in this current debate we were having about faith vs. works?

I asked you for your complete view on faith and works in hopes it would lead to an open conversation. That was your response. Blame yourself.

---

I don't think you get that I'm not here to "debate" this topic. I was here to share my personal perspective, experiences and conversations with people who have discussed this with me in the past and how various Christian works (beyond eating pizza and playing tennis) have made a difference in people's lives and helped put or kept them on a path towards faith in Jesus and belief and hope in God's grace.

I honestly don't think you have had much real world experience with ministry, outreaches, missions, or even just genuinely talking to people from a variety of faith backgrounds. If I'm right I would encourage you to do so. Not because I think it will change your view on this topic, but because maybe you would ease up on being so confrontational about it.

Look at this thread...how many people continue to contribute sincere thoughtful posts vs how many have left due it becoming a mean-spirited debate competition? Whose faith is fed by that? Whose purpose does that serve?

If you have had experience in those things then I sincerely apologize and hope you continue to serve faithfully.

Either way I'm departing from this thread. Real truth for me is found in a shared journey towards God, not a an argument in the car over what song should be played on the radio.

---

I appreciate your comments here. FWIW, started experiencing some non-life threatening but persistently painful health issues about 5 months ago that led me to disconnect from this conversation as it was clear our Pharisee-in-Residence wasn't worth the aggravation of listening to over against many other activities that have been more productive and satisfying for me. Pretty sure if you take a few months off you will be able to come right back here and find little has changed.

---

You called me a Pharisee because I believe that Christians should put their salvation in Jesus' hands, not Mary's.

You also didn't even know what the bible said about a topic that you argued hard against me about. You didn't even read the chapter in John we were discussing.

The written record is all there. Sorry, I'm really not bothered that my Christian views are being insulted by someone who doesn't even know Christianity.

---

As ever, you stack one stupid assertion on top of another and pile on more idiocracy after that for good measure just in case there was any doubt. Plus ca change… At least you're reliable for a chuckle. Thanks.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

90sBear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

I agree that our faith should be in Christ and His work 100% , but I just disagree about the assurance part. Service to the Lord after Salvation does bring peace and assurance with God. As long as your faith is not in the works themselves for Salvation, but rather in Christ alone. I believe that the Lord brings peace to the Believers heart when he is actively serving Him.

He is talking to Believers who are already saved, telling them to do good works, NOT for Salvation, but because they are already saved.

---

I agree that he is talking to believers and that is largely his emphasis, but IMO even believers sometimes need works to keep them on a path seeking Christ.

Talking about someone in the Bible is past tense, we know their outcome. But talking about someone alive here and now is different in my mind. I know people who once said they were strong believers that I would now describe as agnostic at best.

I know people who say that their faith had sometimes waned and finding works to do helped keep them in a faith seeking direction.

Yes - this definitely shows how inaccurate works can sometimes be showing how strong someone's faith is - going through the motions as an example. But it is also indicative that works can also be stabilizing and even inspiring for believers in terms maintaining their faith.

---

.

I believe that a true believer will always be one, but they can step out of God's will, which causes doubts. Works for Christ do help with assurance of Salvation, but they don't save.

---

Assurance of one's salvation should be dependent on what Jesus did, and his promise to give to anyone who asks. If one places any of their assurance in their works, then they run the risk of being like the ones in Matthew 7:22-23 who thought that their works were proof that they were saved: "On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'"

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

90sBear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

I agree that our faith should be in Christ and His work 100% , but I just disagree about the assurance part. Service to the Lord after Salvation does bring peace and assurance with God. As long as your faith is not in the works themselves for Salvation, but rather in Christ alone. I believe that the Lord brings peace to the Believers heart when he is actively serving Him.

He is talking to Believers who are already saved, telling them to do good works, NOT for Salvation, but because they are already saved.

---

I agree that he is talking to believers and that is largely his emphasis, but IMO even believers sometimes need works to keep them on a path seeking Christ.

Talking about someone in the Bible is past tense, we know their outcome. But talking about someone alive here and now is different in my mind. I know people who once said they were strong believers that I would now describe as agnostic at best.

I know people who say that their faith had sometimes waned and finding works to do helped keep them in a faith seeking direction.

Yes - this definitely shows how inaccurate works can sometimes be showing how strong someone's faith is - going through the motions as an example. But it is also indicative that works can also be stabilizing and even inspiring for believers in terms maintaining their faith.

---

.

I believe that a true believer will always be one, but they can step out of God's will, which causes doubts. Works for Christ do help with assurance of Salvation, but they don't save.

---

Assurance of one's salvation should be dependent on what Jesus did, and his promise to give to anyone who asks. If one places any of their assurance in their works, then they run the risk of being like the ones in Matthew 7:22-23 who thought that their works were proof that they were saved: "On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'"

---

---

What concerns me, Frodo, is that the people who were sent away by Christ believed they were saved, but were not. You are correct that trusting in works is the wrong way to think, but there is danger the other way as well.

Consider Luke 19:23, where the servant who does nothing with what he was given loses what he had to start.

Consider Matthew 12:50, where Christ plainly says "whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." This means - I would say - that what we do is part of whether we are His

This interpretation is consistent with Matthew 23:23, where Jesus rebukes the Pharisees, saying: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spicesmint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the lawjustice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former"

Christ is noting (see the bold part) that works matter, but only if they are done in a spirit of justice, mercy and faithfulness. Works done out of pride and ego are not pleasing to God, but doing nothing is not the way of the Servant.

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90's Bear - "No, I wouldn't say that."

Thank you.

/debate

Exactly what debate do you think you are winning here? I came into this thread to share my viewpoints based on my experiences. You haven't changed them. You haven't changed anyone's. If someone asks me my position on faith and works, I would give them the exact same scripture-based link I gave a long time ago and then I'm going to ask them what they think, just like before.

If going to a retreat is a work, so is eating pizza and playing tennis.

I would tell that person that event (going to a retreat, eating pizza, playing tennis) mattered towards them coming to faith. But I would not tell people that "going to a retreat/eating pizza/playing tennis matters in whether one goes to heaven or not". The former is validating the personal significance an event had in a person's life. The latter is making a general statement about salvation that people will interpret wrongly.

Yes, make sure and tell the substance abuse person who was suicidal and went through an ordered faith-based recovery process that turned their life around that there is nothing different between that and eating pizza. Because after all, they are both works.

Did you really think me saying "salvation is by faith, not works" was a complete answer and reflects what I would tell people if they ask me about salvation, and not just a quick summary to succinctly convey my position in this current debate we were having about faith vs. works?

I asked you for your complete view on faith and works in hopes it would lead to an open conversation. That was your response. Blame yourself.

---

I don't think you get that I'm not here to "debate" this topic. I was here to share my personal perspective, experiences and conversations with people who have discussed this with me in the past and how various Christian works (beyond eating pizza and playing tennis) have made a difference in people's lives and helped put or kept them on a path towards faith in Jesus and belief and hope in God's grace.

I honestly don't think you have had much real world experience with ministry, outreaches, missions, or even just genuinely talking to people from a variety of faith backgrounds. If I'm right I would encourage you to do so. Not because I think it will change your view on this topic, but because maybe you would ease up on being so confrontational about it.

Look at this thread...how many people continue to contribute sincere thoughtful posts vs how many have left due it becoming a mean-spirited debate competition? Whose faith is fed by that? Whose purpose does that serve?

If you have had experience in those things then I sincerely apologize and hope you continue to serve faithfully.

Either way I'm departing from this thread. Real truth for me is found in a shared journey towards God, not a an argument in the car over what song should be played on the radio.

---

I appreciate your comments here. FWIW, started experiencing some non-life threatening but persistently painful health issues about 5 months ago that led me to disconnect from this conversation as it was clear our Pharisee-in-Residence wasn't worth the aggravation of listening to over against many other activities that have been more productive and satisfying for me. Pretty sure if you take a few months off you will be able to come right back here and find little has changed.

---

You called me a Pharisee because I believe that Christians should put their salvation in Jesus' hands, not Mary's.

You also didn't even know what the bible said about a topic that you argued hard against me about. You didn't even read the chapter in John we were discussing.

The written record is all there. Sorry, I'm really not bothered that my Christian views are being insulted by someone who doesn't even know Christianity.

---

As ever, you stack one stupid assertion on top of another and pile on more idiocracy after that for good measure just in case there was any doubt. Plus ca change… At least you're reliable for a chuckle. Thanks.

---

Would you like me to point you to where these exactly occurred in this thread?

I'll be glad to, for you and whoever starred your comment.

Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

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90sBear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

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I agree that our faith should be in Christ and His work 100% , but I just disagree about the assurance part. Service to the Lord after Salvation does bring peace and assurance with God. As long as your faith is not in the works themselves for Salvation, but rather in Christ alone. I believe that the Lord brings peace to the Believers heart when he is actively serving Him.

He is talking to Believers who are already saved, telling them to do good works, NOT for Salvation, but because they are already saved.

---

I agree that he is talking to believers and that is largely his emphasis, but IMO even believers sometimes need works to keep them on a path seeking Christ.

Talking about someone in the Bible is past tense, we know their outcome. But talking about someone alive here and now is different in my mind. I know people who once said they were strong believers that I would now describe as agnostic at best.

I know people who say that their faith had sometimes waned and finding works to do helped keep them in a faith seeking direction.

Yes - this definitely shows how inaccurate works can sometimes be showing how strong someone's faith is - going through the motions as an example. But it is also indicative that works can also be stabilizing and even inspiring for believers in terms maintaining their faith.

---

.

I believe that a true believer will always be one, but they can step out of God's will, which causes doubts. Works for Christ do help with assurance of Salvation, but they don't save.

---

Assurance of one's salvation should be dependent on what Jesus did, and his promise to give to anyone who asks. If one places any of their assurance in their works, then they run the risk of being like the ones in Matthew 7:22-23 who thought that their works were proof that they were saved: "On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'"

---

---

What concerns me, Frodo, is that the people who were sent away by Christ believed they were saved, but were not. You are correct that trusting in works is the wrong way to think, but there is danger the other way as well.

Consider Luke 19:23, where the servant who does nothing with what he was given loses what he had to start.

Consider Matthew 12:50, where Christ plainly says "whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." This means - I would say - that what we do is part of whether we are His

This interpretation is consistent with Matthew 23:23, where Jesus rebukes the Pharisees, saying: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spicesmint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the lawjustice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former"

Christ is noting (see the bold part) that works matter, but only if they are done in a spirit of justice, mercy and faithfulness. Works done out of pride and ego are not pleasing to God, but doing nothing is not the way of the Servant.

---

So does this mean we can lose our salvation if we do not produce works?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So does this mean we can lose our salvation if we do not produce works?

---

Salvation is a process that begins with the prayer of the sinner. It isn't an event that ends with it. That understanding has to come before understanding how faith and works fit into the equation.

Realitybites said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So does this mean we can lose our salvation if we do not produce works?

---

Salvation is a process that begins with the prayer of the sinner. It isn't an event that ends with it. That understanding has to come before understanding how faith and works fit into the equation.

---

Does it begin with prayer? Was the house of Cornelius saved upon hearing and believing the gospel (Acts10)? If so, they were saved without even praying. Was the thief on the cross saved? If so, he was saved without praying. He spoke to Jesus, but he didn't pray.

If you consider what the thief did "praying" or argue that we don't know if he or the house of Cornelius prayed before they were saved, then my question is this: suppose the thief on the cross and the house of Cornelius did NOT pray. Suppose they didn't do anything, they just believed in their heart and trusted in Jesus. Would they still have been saved? Suppose someone today does nothing, but in their heart they truly believe and trust Jesus for their salvation. Would Jesus save them?

Realitybites said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So does this mean we can lose our salvation if we do not produce works?

---

Salvation is a process that begins with the prayer of the sinner. It isn't an event that ends with it. That understanding has to come before understanding how faith and works fit into the equation.

---

This suggests that salvation is not by faith, but by faith PLUS other things, like works. Calling it a "process" also means that one can never have assurance that they are saved, because their salvation isn't "completed". You could die today, and not be saved, even though you believe and trust in Jesus for your salvation. That would be unbiblical.

Is this what you believe? Could you answer my question above more directly? Can we either lose our salvation, or not be "completed" in our salvation if we do not produce works?

Our Salvation is already guaranteed on the cross

Waco1947 said:

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Our Salvation is already guaranteed on the cross

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only those who abide by what is written in John 14

Waco1947 said:

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Our Salvation is already guaranteed on the cross

---

The problem with some here regarding salvation is what they're trying to add to salvation (works).

The problem with you is what you take away from salvation (the supernatural nature of it).

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So does this mean we can lose our salvation if we do not produce works?

---

Salvation is a process that begins with the prayer of the sinner. It isn't an event that ends with it. That understanding has to come before understanding how faith and works fit into the equation.

---

This suggests that salvation is not by faith, but by faith PLUS other things, like works. Calling it a "process" also means that one can never have assurance that they are saved, because their salvation isn't "completed". You could die today, and not be saved, even though you believe and trust in Jesus for your salvation. That would be unbiblical.

Is this what you believe? Could you answer my question above more directly? Can we either lose our salvation, or not be "completed" in our salvation if we do not produce works?

---

Salvation is absolutely by faith. After which we take up our cross and follow Him (Jesus own instructions). This entire thing is salvation. It is judged by God against the background of the entirety of the race we run. For any living man to declare that he is absolutely, unconditionally saved in this life is quite presumptuous as no man knows the future.

Someone who claims they have faith and are saved yet chooses to be a fruitless tree has neither.

50% or so of evangelical youth group kids who pray the sinners prayer eventually walk away from the Christian faith. Were these people (1) saved and continue to be saved, (2) saved and lost their salvation, (3) never saved to begin with?

Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

90sBear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

I agree that our faith should be in Christ and His work 100% , but I just disagree about the assurance part. Service to the Lord after Salvation does bring peace and assurance with God. As long as your faith is not in the works themselves for Salvation, but rather in Christ alone. I believe that the Lord brings peace to the Believers heart when he is actively serving Him.

He is talking to Believers who are already saved, telling them to do good works, NOT for Salvation, but because they are already saved.

---

I agree that he is talking to believers and that is largely his emphasis, but IMO even believers sometimes need works to keep them on a path seeking Christ.

Talking about someone in the Bible is past tense, we know their outcome. But talking about someone alive here and now is different in my mind. I know people who once said they were strong believers that I would now describe as agnostic at best.

I know people who say that their faith had sometimes waned and finding works to do helped keep them in a faith seeking direction.

Yes - this definitely shows how inaccurate works can sometimes be showing how strong someone's faith is - going through the motions as an example. But it is also indicative that works can also be stabilizing and even inspiring for believers in terms maintaining their faith.

---

.

I believe that a true believer will always be one, but they can step out of God's will, which causes doubts. Works for Christ do help with assurance of Salvation, but they don't save.

---

Assurance of one's salvation should be dependent on what Jesus did, and his promise to give to anyone who asks. If one places any of their assurance in their works, then they run the risk of being like the ones in Matthew 7:22-23 who thought that their works were proof that they were saved: "On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'"

---

---

What concerns me, Frodo, is that the people who were sent away by Christ believed they were saved, but were not. You are correct that trusting in works is the wrong way to think, but there is danger the other way as well.

Consider Luke 19:23, where the servant who does nothing with what he was given loses what he had to start.

Consider Matthew 12:50, where Christ plainly says "whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." This means - I would say - that what we do is part of whether we are His

This interpretation is consistent with Matthew 23:23, where Jesus rebukes the Pharisees, saying: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spicesmint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the lawjustice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former"

Christ is noting (see the bold part) that works matter, but only if they are done in a spirit of justice, mercy and faithfulness. Works done out of pride and ego are not pleasing to God, but doing nothing is not the way of the Servant.

---

If you're not going to answer my question, then you're not telling people what exactly is the "danger" that they are in. Isn't that something you should be forthright and crystal clear about? To not answer out of spite could affect someone else's eternal destiny. Wouldn't that be evil?

In Luke 19 that you referenced - does "losing what he had to start" mean we can lose our salvation? This is important, you need to explain.

In Matthew 12, why isn't the will of the Father for us to believe in Jesus? John 6:40: "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life". John 6:27-30: Jesus - "Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you." The crowd: "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Jesus: "This is the work of God - that you believe in him whom he has sent."

The reason the Pharisees weren't "His" was because they didn't believe in whom God had sent. Not because of the deficiency in their law keeping. If that was the standard, then NO ONE would be "His" because no one can keep the law perfectly. Jesus wasn't saying that if they had kept the law better then they would belong to Him. He was just pointing out their hypocrisy. Even if they had been able to "practice the latter without neglecting the former (do justice, mercy, faithfulness) they still would not belong to God because of their unbelief in Jesus. Besides, it's not like the Pharisees didn't obey anything in the Law, they did obey many things. Couldn't they argue like you are, then, that by doing these works it shows that they belonged to God? No, because they didn't believe. So this passage in Matthew 23 doesn't really seem to support the point you're trying to make.

Realitybites said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So does this mean we can lose our salvation if we do not produce works?

---

Salvation is a process that begins with the prayer of the sinner. It isn't an event that ends with it. That understanding has to come before understanding how faith and works fit into the equation.

---

This suggests that salvation is not by faith, but by faith PLUS other things, like works. Calling it a "process" also means that one can never have assurance that they are saved, because their salvation isn't "completed". You could die today, and not be saved, even though you believe and trust in Jesus for your salvation. That would be unbiblical.

Is this what you believe? Could you answer my question above more directly? Can we either lose our salvation, or not be "completed" in our salvation if we do not produce works?

---

Salvation is absolutely by faith. After which we take up our cross and follow Him (Jesus own instructions). This entire thing is salvation. It is judged by God against the background of the entirety of the race we run. For any living man to declare that he is absolutely, unconditionally saved in this life is quite presumptuous as no man knows the future.

Someone who claims they have faith and are saved yet chooses to be a fruitless tree has neither.

50% or so of evangelical youth group kids who pray the sinners prayer eventually walk away from the Christian faith. Were these people (1) saved and continue to be saved, (2) saved and lost their salvation, (3) never saved to begin with?

---

How successful must one be at following Jesus in order to be saved? We all aren't going to be able to do it perfectly.

Someone who claims they are saved, but chooses to be a fruitless tree, wasn't really saved. This isn't about what one claims, it's about what really is.

The answer to your question is 2) or 3). It's the state of their faith that determines that, not their works. They are the rocky soil and soil among thorns in the parable of the sower (Luke 8).

Now can you answer my question? If the thief on the cross and the house of Cornelius did nothing except believe and trust Jesus in their heart, would they still have been saved?

Realitybites said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So does this mean we can lose our salvation if we do not produce works?

---

Salvation is a process that begins with the prayer of the sinner. It isn't an event that ends with it. That understanding has to come before understanding how faith and works fit into the equation.

---

This suggests that salvation is not by faith, but by faith PLUS other things, like works. Calling it a "process" also means that one can never have assurance that they are saved, because their salvation isn't "completed". You could die today, and not be saved, even though you believe and trust in Jesus for your salvation. That would be unbiblical.

Is this what you believe? Could you answer my question above more directly? Can we either lose our salvation, or not be "completed" in our salvation if we do not produce works?

---

Salvation is absolutely by faith. After which we take up our cross and follow Him (Jesus own instructions). This entire thing is salvation. It is judged by God against the background of the entirety of the race we run. For any living man to declare that he is absolutely, unconditionally saved in this life is quite presumptuous as no man knows the future.

---

This is unbiblical. The bible teaches that God wants us to have assurance and know we are saved. 1 John 5:13:

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life."

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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90sBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90's Bear - "No, I wouldn't say that."

Thank you.

/debate

Exactly what debate do you think you are winning here? I came into this thread to share my viewpoints based on my experiences. You haven't changed them. You haven't changed anyone's. If someone asks me my position on faith and works, I would give them the exact same scripture-based link I gave a long time ago and then I'm going to ask them what they think, just like before.

If going to a retreat is a work, so is eating pizza and playing tennis.

I would tell that person that event (going to a retreat, eating pizza, playing tennis) mattered towards them coming to faith. But I would not tell people that "going to a retreat/eating pizza/playing tennis matters in whether one goes to heaven or not". The former is validating the personal significance an event had in a person's life. The latter is making a general statement about salvation that people will interpret wrongly.

Yes, make sure and tell the substance abuse person who was suicidal and went through an ordered faith-based recovery process that turned their life around that there is nothing different between that and eating pizza. Because after all, they are both works.

Did you really think me saying "salvation is by faith, not works" was a complete answer and reflects what I would tell people if they ask me about salvation, and not just a quick summary to succinctly convey my position in this current debate we were having about faith vs. works?

I asked you for your complete view on faith and works in hopes it would lead to an open conversation. That was your response. Blame yourself.

---

I don't think you get that I'm not here to "debate" this topic. I was here to share my personal perspective, experiences and conversations with people who have discussed this with me in the past and how various Christian works (beyond eating pizza and playing tennis) have made a difference in people's lives and helped put or kept them on a path towards faith in Jesus and belief and hope in God's grace.

I honestly don't think you have had much real world experience with ministry, outreaches, missions, or even just genuinely talking to people from a variety of faith backgrounds. If I'm right I would encourage you to do so. Not because I think it will change your view on this topic, but because maybe you would ease up on being so confrontational about it.

Look at this thread...how many people continue to contribute sincere thoughtful posts vs how many have left due it becoming a mean-spirited debate competition? Whose faith is fed by that? Whose purpose does that serve?

If you have had experience in those things then I sincerely apologize and hope you continue to serve faithfully.

Either way I'm departing from this thread. Real truth for me is found in a shared journey towards God, not a an argument in the car over what song should be played on the radio.

---

I appreciate your comments here. FWIW, started experiencing some non-life threatening but persistently painful health issues about 5 months ago that led me to disconnect from this conversation as it was clear our Pharisee-in-Residence wasn't worth the aggravation of listening to over against many other activities that have been more productive and satisfying for me. Pretty sure if you take a few months off you will be able to come right back here and find little has changed.

---

You called me a Pharisee because I believe that Christians should put their salvation in Jesus' hands, not Mary's.

You also didn't even know what the bible said about a topic that you argued hard against me about. You didn't even read the chapter in John we were discussing.

The written record is all there. Sorry, I'm really not bothered that my Christian views are being insulted by someone who doesn't even know Christianity.

---

As ever, you stack one stupid assertion on top of another and pile on more idiocracy after that for good measure just in case there was any doubt. Plus ca change… At least you're reliable for a chuckle. Thanks.

---

Would you like me to point you to where these exactly occurred in this thread?

I'll be glad to, for you and whoever starred your comment.

---

Knock yourself out, big boy. You might as well continue to leave your slimy trail of self centered self righteous twaddle that you confuse for "truth" when we all know you struggle to recognize that which is merely your opinion. Please, amaze me with your extraordinary powers of discernment.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

It isn't good if someone's faith is "fed" if their faith is distorted, it should be steered into the right direction"

It appears that you are the sole arbiter of "distorted faith" and you seem to know the "right direction"

From what I gather your "interpretation' of scripture is the only right one.

What is distorted faith?
What is right direction?

---

Everyone here thinks their interpretation is the right one (especially you) and tries to steer others towards their direction.

We can't all be right, if we differ. That's why it's important we we discuss/debate them. Unfortunately, people here seem to only want to view that as "anger", "mean spirited debate", and "confrontational".

Distorted faith is faith that is centered on unbiblical thinking or principles. For example, a faith on a God and Jesus who aren't supernatural.

The right direction is in line with the rightly divided word of God, the bible. But what is the rightly divided word? That's what we can discuss/debate.

---

what is rightly divided word mean? I am unfamiliar with that phrase

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90's Bear - "No, I wouldn't say that."

Thank you.

/debate

Exactly what debate do you think you are winning here? I came into this thread to share my viewpoints based on my experiences. You haven't changed them. You haven't changed anyone's. If someone asks me my position on faith and works, I would give them the exact same scripture-based link I gave a long time ago and then I'm going to ask them what they think, just like before.

If going to a retreat is a work, so is eating pizza and playing tennis.

I would tell that person that event (going to a retreat, eating pizza, playing tennis) mattered towards them coming to faith. But I would not tell people that "going to a retreat/eating pizza/playing tennis matters in whether one goes to heaven or not". The former is validating the personal significance an event had in a person's life. The latter is making a general statement about salvation that people will interpret wrongly.

Yes, make sure and tell the substance abuse person who was suicidal and went through an ordered faith-based recovery process that turned their life around that there is nothing different between that and eating pizza. Because after all, they are both works.

Did you really think me saying "salvation is by faith, not works" was a complete answer and reflects what I would tell people if they ask me about salvation, and not just a quick summary to succinctly convey my position in this current debate we were having about faith vs. works?

I asked you for your complete view on faith and works in hopes it would lead to an open conversation. That was your response. Blame yourself.

---

I don't think you get that I'm not here to "debate" this topic. I was here to share my personal perspective, experiences and conversations with people who have discussed this with me in the past and how various Christian works (beyond eating pizza and playing tennis) have made a difference in people's lives and helped put or kept them on a path towards faith in Jesus and belief and hope in God's grace.

I honestly don't think you have had much real world experience with ministry, outreaches, missions, or even just genuinely talking to people from a variety of faith backgrounds. If I'm right I would encourage you to do so. Not because I think it will change your view on this topic, but because maybe you would ease up on being so confrontational about it.

Look at this thread...how many people continue to contribute sincere thoughtful posts vs how many have left due it becoming a mean-spirited debate competition? Whose faith is fed by that? Whose purpose does that serve?

If you have had experience in those things then I sincerely apologize and hope you continue to serve faithfully.

Either way I'm departing from this thread. Real truth for me is found in a shared journey towards God, not a an argument in the car over what song should be played on the radio.

---

I appreciate your comments here. FWIW, started experiencing some non-life threatening but persistently painful health issues about 5 months ago that led me to disconnect from this conversation as it was clear our Pharisee-in-Residence wasn't worth the aggravation of listening to over against many other activities that have been more productive and satisfying for me. Pretty sure if you take a few months off you will be able to come right back here and find little has changed.

---

You called me a Pharisee because I believe that Christians should put their salvation in Jesus' hands, not Mary's.

You also didn't even know what the bible said about a topic that you argued hard against me about. You didn't even read the chapter in John we were discussing.

The written record is all there. Sorry, I'm really not bothered that my Christian views are being insulted by someone who doesn't even know Christianity.

---

As ever, you stack one stupid assertion on top of another and pile on more idiocracy after that for good measure just in case there was any doubt. Plus ca change… At least you're reliable for a chuckle. Thanks.

---

Would you like me to point you to where these exactly occurred in this thread?

I'll be glad to, for you and whoever starred your comment.

---

Knock yourself out, big boy. You might as well continue to leave your slimy trail of self centered self righteous twaddle that you confuse for "truth" when we all know you struggle to recognize that which is merely your opinion. Please, amaze me with your extraordinary powers of discernment.

---

Page 19 of this thread:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
"We "evil", "Fundy Taliban" Christian types believe in obeying God and putting our eternal salvation and entrusting our soul in Jesus' hands......if that drives away people who want to put their salvation and entrust their soul in the hands of someone other than God, then so be it."

curtpenn said:
"Do you even hear yourself? The Pharisees would be proud."


No true Christian would ever consider it pharisaical to believe that we must put our salvation in the hands of NO ONE other than Jesus/God, and to believe that anyone who does otherwise should not be part of the Church. This should not even need explaining.

So much for this being a "stupid assertion". It's so easy to mock what I'm saying as untrue twaddle, not so easy to actually prove it wrong.

If what I'm saying in this thread isn't the truth, then why are you only able to insult me instead of make an argument against it?