xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BTD: "The statement is saying that a true believer is defined as one who endures to the end. Those who don't endure were never true believers."

Which is why I said long ago, If saved always saved.

But it's also vital to understand that a drive-by post selling Salvation as a one and done gesture is a bad way to help new believers become the kind who persevere.

At the very least, new believers will have a ton of questions, wrestle with doubts and be at risk of listening to false prophets (Joel Osteen, anyone?) And some fall into the trap of believing that now they are saved, they don't need to do anything but enjoy being 'in' with God. That is why we see so many professed believers acting in arrogance and pride.

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Thanks for your input but telling them about Christ is better than not telling them. If their faith is truly in Christ for Salvation, they will be saved and God will lead them where they need to Go. I can't reach through the computer and Disciple them. I am thankful for this platform to share the Gospel.

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No one is saying 'don't tell them about the Gospel', Frodo. That's a false argument and unworthy of you.

The problem is that too many would-be evangelists will preach a simple message, toss off a phrase that is incomplete at best and possibly misleading, then ignore the need to walk the walk.

Don't forget that in Christ's parable of the Good Samaritan, the focus is not the priest who doubtless tossed off a prayer as he passed, but the ordinary man who actually went and helped the person who got mugged.

Jesus also taught of the sower who just tossed seed all over the place, so that some of it was left on hard ground and eaten by birds, some sprouted but were choked by weeds, some couldn't get roots going because the dirt was too thin. It was clear reminder that to grow anything, you first have to prepare the ground where you will sow the seeds.

One big reason so many modern churches fail, is that they are all talk and no action. Few churches do anything for the homeless, few work to help people seeking jobs, few provide counseling and resources for people struggling with addictions and abuse. For every church which actually does things to help people, there are a dozen which throw out good words but nothing else.

You have correctly observed that the goal is to bring as many souls home to the Lord as possible. To do that, you have to do more than promise a one-and-done prayer will solve all their needs and eliminate the things which led them to sin in the first place.

Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BTD: "The statement is saying that a true believer is defined as one who endures to the end. Those who don't endure were never true believers."

Which is why I said long ago, If saved always saved.

But it's also vital to understand that a drive-by post selling Salvation as a one and done gesture is a bad way to help new believers become the kind who persevere.

At the very least, new believers will have a ton of questions, wrestle with doubts and be at risk of listening to false prophets (Joel Osteen, anyone?) And some fall into the trap of believing that now they are saved, they don't need to do anything but enjoy being 'in' with God. That is why we see so many professed believers acting in arrogance and pride.

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Thanks for your input but telling them about Christ is better than not telling them. If their faith is truly in Christ for Salvation, they will be saved and God will lead them where they need to Go. I can't reach through the computer and Disciple them. I am thankful for this platform to share the Gospel.

---

No one is saying 'don't tell them about the Gospel', Frodo. That's a false argument and unworthy of you.

The problem is that too many would-be evangelists will preach a simple message, toss off a phrase that is incomplete at best and possibly misleading, then ignore the need to walk the walk.

Don't forget that in Christ's parable of the Good Samaritan, the focus is not the priest who doubtless tossed off a prayer as he passed, but the ordinary man who actually went and helped the person who got mugged.

Jesus also taught of the sower who just tossed seed all over the place, so that some of it was left on hard ground and eaten by birds, some sprouted but were choked by weeds, some couldn't get roots going because the dirt was too thin. It was clear reminder that to grow anything, you first have to prepare the ground where you will sow the seeds.

One big reason so many modern churches fail, is that they are all talk and no action. Few churches do anything for the homeless, few work to help people seeking jobs, few provide counseling and resources for people struggling with addictions and abuse. For every church which actually does things to help people, there are a dozen which throw out good words but nothing else.

You have correctly observed that the goal is to bring as many souls home to the Lord as possible. To do that, you have to do more than promise a one-and-done prayer will solve all their needs and eliminate the things which led them to sin in the first place.

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I reject your argument that you can't do a 'Once and done' placing faith in Christ and believing in His death and resurrection to save you is all that's required. You seem to think of I can't hold them all by the hand, then I shouldn't share the Gospel with them and they can't be saved. That's false and it they truly trust in the Lord, HE will direct them.

That's lazy and shows no care for newborn Christians

Oldbear83 said:

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That's lazy and shows no care for newborn Christians

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You're right, I should jump through the screen and Disciple them. Why haven't YOU done it? Or maybe I don't want you to because you are confused about Doctrine.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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That's lazy and shows no care for newborn Christians

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You're right, I should jump through the screen and Disciple them. Why haven't YOU done it? Or maybe I don't want you to because you are confused about Doctrine.

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Actually, I do take such actions. What I don't do, is toss off a post and pretend it's some magic phrase which solves everyone's problems.

And since I am the one quoting Christ from Scripture and the SBC from their own statements, while you are limited to your personal interpretation using phrases found nowhere in Scripture, I'd suggest you are writing out of hubris right now.

The idea is to help people accept Christ by learning about Him through life experience, not win an internet argument. Until just now, I believed you agreed with me on that point.

Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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That's lazy and shows no care for newborn Christians

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You're right, I should jump through the screen and Disciple them. Why haven't YOU done it? Or maybe I don't want you to because you are confused about Doctrine.

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Actually, I do take such actions. What I don't do, is toss off a post and pretend it's some magic phrase which solves everyone's problems.

And since I am the one quoting Christ from Scripture and the SBC from their own statements, while you are limited to your personal interpretation using phrases found nowhere in Scripture, I'd suggest you are writing out of hubris right now.

The idea is to help people accept Christ by learning about Him through life experience, not win an internet argument. Until just now, I believed you agreed with me on that point.

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Uh huh, so what you mean is that you are back to believing that Salvation is by works now rather than faith alone? You don't even know what SBC believes. You quote them and it opposes your beliefs and then you claim to be one of them. Why don't you start your own thread and show everyone what you mean and stop hindering those who come here.

You get angry when I point things out. No Frodo, I have just as much right to post here as you, and no, you are wrong to claim you are correct in SBC doctrine: I even posted what they actually said and it doesn't support your claim. Trying to chase someone away is intellectually dishonest.

Also, I have been plain all along that we are saved by Christ's atonement for us and not our works, but that a believer will produce works, so pretending all you have to do is pop off some magic phrase is wrong and dishonors what Christ commanded.

If you wish to defend your do-nothing theory, please show scriptures where Christ said it was okay to ignore someone in need. I have already posted verses which say the opposite.

Oldbear83 said:

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You get angry when I point things out. No Frodo, I have just as much right to post here as you, and no, you are wrong to claim you are correct in SBC doctrine: I even posted what they actually said and it doesn't support your claim. Trying to chase someone away is intellectually dishonest.

Also, I have been plain all along that we are saved by Christ's atonement for us and not our works, but that a believer will produce works, so pretending all you have to do is pop off some magic phrase is wrong and dishonors what Christ commanded.

If you wish to defend your do-nothing theory, please show scriptures where Christ said it was okay to ignore someone in need. I have already posted verses which say the opposite.

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I'm not angry at all. I think you don't know what you're talking about and try to act like an authority on the Bible. Your views are contrary to the SBC. I was a Worship Leader in the SBC for 15 years. My Pastor was the head of the SBC in my state.

So are you saying that people can't be saved by following the directions of this first post?

See below

"act like an authority on the Bible."

I'm just quoting Scripture. Something you seem reluctant to do?

" Your views are contrary to the SBC."

No they are not, I simply disagree with you. You don't speak for the SBC, especially when you misquoted their own statement after I even posted it for you.

"I was a Worship Leader in the SBC for 15 years. My Pastor was the head of the SBC in my state."

Nether of which makes you right in this case. It happens that I have over half century of church service in various roles, I just don't boast on it because a) it is not relevant to these discussions, b) pride often leads people into error, and c) Do I really need to mention some of the many ministers who were dead wrong in their words and actions? 'Do you know who I am?' is not part of a valid discussion. It's just evocative of the likes of Caiaphas.

Oldbear83 said:

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"act like an authority on the Bible."

I'm just quoting Scripture. Something you seem reluctant to do?

" Your views are contrary to the SBC."

No they are not, I simply disagree with you. You don't speak for the SBC, especially when you misquoted their own statement after I even posted it for you.

"I was a Worship Leader in the SBC for 15 years. My Pastor was the head of the SBC in my state."

Nether of which makes you right in this case. It happens that I have over half century of church service in various roles, I just don't boast on it because a) it is not relevant to these discussions, b) pride often leads people into error, and c) Do I really need to mention some of the many ministers who were dead wrong in their words and actions? 'Do you know who I am?' is not part of a valid discussion. It's just evocative of the likes of Caiaphas.

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And yet you still don't know what the SBC teachers. FYI I had been with the SBC for 15 years, but I have also been active in Church for 50 years. I'm not bragging, I am telling you that you don't know what the SBC teaches. If you were really the man of God you claim to be, you wouldn't hinder the Gospel here. You can't lose your Salvation and Works have no part of Salvation. Works are something you do after Salvation, not for Salvation. All you know how to do is argue and accuse. You don't get along with anyone. You are almost not worth talking to.

I quote Scripture, and you repeat unsupported personal opinion. You are also claiming I made an argument I never did, while ignoring what I have taken pains to make clear.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

Oldbear83 said:

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I quote Scripture, and you repeat unsupported personal opinion. You are also claiming I made an argument I never did, while ignoring what I have taken pains to make clear.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

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You didn't quote Scripture, you quoted the SBC stance on it. That's not Scripture.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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I quote Scripture, and you repeat unsupported personal opinion. You are also claiming I made an argument I never did, while ignoring what I have taken pains to make clear.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

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You didn't quote Scripture, you quoted the SBC stance on it. That's not Scripture.

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I'm talking about all the quotes from Christ.

That you ignored them, does not mean I did not quote Him.

I hope you all had a happy Sunday.

Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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I quote Scripture, and you repeat unsupported personal opinion. You are also claiming I made an argument I never did, while ignoring what I have taken pains to make clear.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

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You didn't quote Scripture, you quoted the SBC stance on it. That's not Scripture.

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I'm talking about all the quotes from Christ.

That you ignored them, does not mean I did not quote Him.

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Are you saying that Jesus said you can lose your Salvation?

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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I quote Scripture, and you repeat unsupported personal opinion. You are also claiming I made an argument I never did, while ignoring what I have taken pains to make clear.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

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You didn't quote Scripture, you quoted the SBC stance on it. That's not Scripture.

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I'm talking about all the quotes from Christ.

That you ignored them, does not mean I did not quote Him.

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Are you saying that Jesus said you can lose your Salvation?

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Read my posts, it's plain if you are paying attention and don't just plug in your assumptions.

It would be nice if you could post your specific scripture that says once you are a Christian, you don't have to do anything more. I have already posted several verses from Christ which say different, but maybe you can find some that support your position.

Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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I quote Scripture, and you repeat unsupported personal opinion. You are also claiming I made an argument I never did, while ignoring what I have taken pains to make clear.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

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You didn't quote Scripture, you quoted the SBC stance on it. That's not Scripture.

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I'm talking about all the quotes from Christ.

That you ignored them, does not mean I did not quote Him.

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Are you saying that Jesus said you can lose your Salvation?

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Read my posts, it's plain if you are paying attention and don't just plug in your assumptions.

It would be nice if you could post your specific scripture that says once you are a Christian, you don't have to do anything more. I have already posted several verses from Christ which say different, but maybe you can find some that support your position.

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How many do you want?

GRACE- When God does something for you that you cannot do for yourself.

Under Grace we are saved by Faith in the completed work of Christ on the cross. Adding works to grace nullifies Grace.

Romans 11:6 KJV
[6]" And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. "

We are saved by Grace through Faith Alone, but we are created UNTO (To do) good works, not because we do good works. God wants us to do good works willingly because He saved us by His grace.


Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
[8]" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

We are not saved by Works of Righteousness, but by Faith Alone:

Titus 3:5-7 KJV
[5] "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [6] which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; [7] that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

** sigh **

You still duck the point.

OK, one more time. No one is saying works earn Heaven.

The question is whether Jesus ever said all you have to do is say some magic words and you never have to produce any works, yet that will please God.

Ever read the verse, 'faith without works is dead'?

Ever read Matthew 7:16, where Christ warned us "By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"

I get it, it's so much easier to pretend you can say you are Christian because you want to think you are one, but Jesus was clear:

"the one who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matthew 24:13

Consider Peter.

Remember when Peter plainly identified Jesus as the Christ? Jesus told him "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:17-19

Pretty important stuff, especially to be told by Jesus that God is speaking to you.

yet just a little later, Peter exclaims that Jesus will surely not be killed, an understandable emotion, yet Christ turns to him and says "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns." Matthew 16:23

Oof.

A lot of people never stop to consider how it is that the same man praised for listening to God is rebuked very soon after for losing his way already.

Consider how just before He was arrested, Jesus took Peter aside and warned him "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers." Luke 22:31-32

From Peter to Paul and all the disciples, what we see is not an instant perfection but a process of growth and redirection.

We are not saved by works, but our works as believers prove the change and growth for whom we serve and whom we shall become.

Without works we do not have that faith you prize so much.

Oldbear83 said:

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I quote Scripture, and you repeat unsupported personal opinion. You are also claiming I made an argument I never did, while ignoring what I have taken pains to make clear.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

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Repeatedly dodging questions meant for clarification and then accusing the asker of "interrogating" you certainly does not qualify as "taking pains to make clear".

Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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I quote Scripture, and you repeat unsupported personal opinion. You are also claiming I made an argument I never did, while ignoring what I have taken pains to make clear.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

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You didn't quote Scripture, you quoted the SBC stance on it. That's not Scripture.

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I'm talking about all the quotes from Christ.

That you ignored them, does not mean I did not quote Him.

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Are you saying that Jesus said you can lose your Salvation?

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Read my posts, it's plain if you are paying attention and don't just plug in your assumptions.

It would be nice if you could post your specific scripture that says once you are a Christian, you don't have to do anything more. I have already posted several verses from Christ which say different, but maybe you can find some that support your position.

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Why can't you just answer the question yes or no? This is exactly what I mean by you being anything BUT "clear".

Oldbear83 said:

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** sigh **

You still duck the point.

OK, one more time. No one is saying works earn Heaven.

The question is whether Jesus ever said all you have to do is say some magic words and you never have to produce any works, yet that will please God.

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You repeatedly engage in this straw man. No one is saying to just "say some magic words" to be saved. You obviously find it necessary to reduce what others are saying to something ridiculous so you can be successful in arguing against it. This isn't intellectually honest.

Also, here again you aren't being clear - "you never have to produce any works"....have to for WHAT? Salvation? If you're arguing about Christian "duty" or that which "pleases God" then you're arguing something completely different than salvation.

Oldbear83 said:

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** sigh **

You still duck the point.

OK, one more time. No one is saying works earn Heaven.

The question is whether Jesus ever said all you have to do is say some magic words and you never have to produce any works, yet that will please God.

Ever read the verse, 'faith without works is dead'?

Ever read Matthew 7:16, where Christ warned us "By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"

I get it, it's so much easier to pretend you can say you are Christian because you want to think you are one, but Jesus was clear:

"the one who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matthew 24:13

Consider Peter.

Remember when Peter plainly identified Jesus as the Christ? Jesus told him "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:17-19

Pretty important stuff, especially to be told by Jesus that God is speaking to you.

yet just a little later, Peter exclaims that Jesus will surely not be killed, an understandable emotion, yet Christ turns to him and says "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns." Matthew 16:23

Oof.

A lot of people never stop to consider how it is that the same man praised for listening to God is rebuked very soon after for losing his way already.

Consider how just before He was arrested, Jesus took Peter aside and warned him "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers." Luke 22:31-32

From Peter to Paul and all the disciples, what we see is not an instant perfection but a process of growth and redirection.

We are not saved by works, but our works as believers prove the change and growth for whom we serve and whom we shall become.

Without works we do not have that faith you prize so much.

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You are changing the argument..

I never said that a Christian didn't have to produce works to 'Please God'. Of course we do. But we don't have to produce good works to be saved, to keep it, ect.


Romans 4:5 KJV
[5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I have changed nothing. Go back and read my posts, from the first page I agreed works do not save.

But you seem to believe that drive-by evangelism does more for a person than just moving air.

It's venal and neglects vital needs of the person concerned.


The confusion is yours.


That's exactly why I have taken the time and pains to quote Christ verbatim.

There is not even one verse where Christ tells us to relax and just toss off a homily.

Very much the opposite, Jesus always emphasized the need to persevere, to follow-through, to ACT to meet the need.

Christ said to 'Take up your cross', and that is a hard ask for some folks.

So then be consistent in your answers. So you agree that Salvation is by Grace through Faith alone and NOT of works to be saved and not if works to KEEP it. Good works come AFTER Salvation because Christ saved US. We do it for Him because we love Him for saving us. Any believer that sins will be chastened by God because He is their Father. Unbelievers are NOT the children of God and are not chastened of the Lord.

Friend, I have always been consistent in my answers. Your problem is that you ignore what I write and assume something else.

Part of why I said let's agree to disagree.

Oldbear83 said:

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Friend, I have always been consistent in my answers. Your problem is that you ignore what I write and assume something else.

Part of why I said let's agree to disagree.

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No one else would agree with you.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Friend, I have always been consistent in my answers. Your problem is that you ignore what I write and assume something else.

Part of why I said let's agree to disagree.

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No one else would agree with you.

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By "no one else", you mean you and BTD.

Have a nice day, we both have better things to do than continue this.

Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Friend, I have always been consistent in my answers. Your problem is that you ignore what I write and assume something else.

Part of why I said let's agree to disagree.

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No one else would agree with you.

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By "no one else", you mean you and BTD.

Have a nice day, we both have better things to do than continue this.

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Not just him, but certainly him as well.

The World has become a very scary place. People need Jesus Christ. Read this first post if you haven't yet.

Or just go to a real church and speak to a human being who will do more than repeat simple phrases, and perhaps even listen to you.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Friend, I have always been consistent in my answers. Your problem is that you ignore what I write and assume something else.

Part of why I said let's agree to disagree.

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No one else would agree with you.

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By "no one else", you mean you and BTD.

Have a nice day, we both have better things to do than continue this.

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Not just him, but certainly him as well.

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Nope, just you two. On the plus side, you can say you have a very exclusive club, you two.

Oldbear83 said:

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Or just go to a real church and speak to a human being who will do more than repeat simple phrases, and perhaps even listen to you.

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Why would I want to pay attention to someone who has no real interest in exploring the actual truth? You consider any verses or arguments I post. You have a know it all attitude and all you do is deflect and accuse others of what you are actually doing. You are probably a Democrat.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Or just go to a real church and speak to a human being who will do more than repeat simple phrases, and perhaps even listen to you.

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Why would I want to pay attention to someone who has no real interest in exploring the actual truth? You consider any verses or arguments I post. You have a know it all attitude and all you do is deflect and accuse others of what you are actually doing. You are probably a Democrat.

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And there it is, the disappointing but predictable ad hominem .

For a self-proclaimed "worship leader" Frodo, you show very little grace but a very thin skin.

Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Friend, I have always been consistent in my answers. Your problem is that you ignore what I write and assume something else.

Part of why I said let's agree to disagree.

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No one else would agree with you.

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Have a nice day, we both have better things to do than continue this.

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Let us pray that it might be so.